Electrician question?

[rack04]

My wife and I are looking to buy our first home. The house we're looking at was built in 1954. According to the inspection report the house does not have a grounding electrode, which I guess is common for this period of construction. What are my options for grounding the two pronged electrical outlets and replacing with three pronged outlets? I have read that the code allows the ungrounded two pronged electrical outlets to be replaced with GFCI outlets but this just doesn't seem safe to me since the outlet is still ungrounded. If we decide to buy the house we are already planning to upgrade the 100 amp panel box and relocate from the coat closet. Thanks for any help.

[14holestogie]

I am no electrician, but I've done some in my older homes.

You can replace the 2 prong plugs with 3 prong plugs, but if only 2 strand wire was used originally, the only advantage would be you could plug in the newer grounded plugs. The outlet itself would not be grounded unless 3 wire cable was used and would still be unprotected. :2

[smokeyandthebandit05]

Im an electrician. The way to protect the outlets is to replace the first outlet in the circuit with the GFCI. The way it works is there is a sensor that monitors the amperage goin back on the neutral so it is protecting you, they trip at 4 to 6 milliamps. If your planning on replace the panel, it is more expensive but you can throw in the GFCI breakers. They are more expensive but it saves on time and labor.



http://www.electricalmarketplace.com/GFCI-Receptacle-Information-W1C124.aspx

[BigFrank]

Pm sent.

[BORIStheBLADE]

Well the reason why code makes you change to a GFCI is because the GFCI detects current leaking and shuts the power down in a split second. That is quick enough to prevent anyone from getting shocked. Thats what they are pretty much worried about when they use GFCI's.

I would probably look into GFCI breakers instead of changing all the outlets, but you might have issues with your fridge.

A ground directs the power away from the situation and is supposed to trip the breaker.. In some cases having a ground is good because if you have a electronic device that has a power wire come loose and touch the casing it would trip the breaker. This would keep you from being shocked. On the other hand a lot of stuff now a days is double insulated and that would never happen.

To be honest with you not having grounded plugs isn't really that big of a deal. I have been living in homes without grounded plugs forever. I would say change the plugs in the kitchen and bathrooms to GFCI's for sure because you will be near water.

I would make sure that my main panel where ever it may be had a ground rod connected to it for sure.

Your electronic devices aren't going to blow up because they aren't grounded.

Nobody can guarantee that having a grounded plug will keep a surge from ruining anything either.

If you were interested in grounding plugs That could be a pretty big project. I'm not certain for sure, but I recall them changing the code to where you can't run a separate ground anymore. If thats the case its going to be an expensive job now.

To top it off in different areas they could add to the code because remember the code is "the bare minimum required" So I'm not sure what exactly the code is in your area.

[Rabidsquirrel]

Smokey and Boris are correct. Although GFCI breakers can get expensive though, depending on what panel you have. With a GFCI, you can replace the first device with the GFCI, and feed all downstream devices with it, meaning you may only need a few.

I disagree with Boris about his stance on the ground though. It's not to prevent surges or protecting equipment, it's about protecting people.

I'm a member of Local 98, Philadelphia. I wonder how many other I.B.E.W. brothers are here.

I'm going to look up that running a separate wire thing Boris. I'm procrastinating about doing housework, so this is just the thing I need.

[BORIStheBLADE]

Smokey and Boris are correct. Although GFCI breakers can get expensive though, depending on what panel you have. With a GFCI, you can replace the first device with the GFCI, and feed all downstream devices with it, meaning you may only need a few.

I disagree with Boris about his stance on the ground though. It's not to prevent surges or protecting equipment, it's about protecting people.

I'm a member of Local 98, Philadelphia. I wonder how many other I.B.E.W. brothers are here.

I'm going to look up that running a separate wire thing Boris. I'm procrastinating about doing housework, so this is just the thing I need.

I didnt say it helps with surges. I said you can't guarantee having a ground will help with surges. I agree with the safety for people. People think its mostly for electronics safety.

Ya let me know about the separate ground code. I usually work in commercial and industrial so I forget about some of the house stuff.

[Rabidsquirrel]

406.3(D)(3)(a)/(b)/(c) deals with replacement of a non grounded receptacle. I didn't really see anything about not running a separate ground wire, but I'll keep checking.

Another reason I'm for changing over receptacles:

New TVs, computers, electronic equipment all have a three prong plug.

I don't know why I forgot about that since I just had to deal with it. This is a relatively new house, but they cut the grounds back on the romex, twisted them together, and put in ungrounded receptacles. Luckily they didn't cut them back far enough that I couldn't throw a tail on there. They also removed the ground screws from the switches.

[BORIStheBLADE]

406.3(D)(3)(a)/(b)/(c) deals with replacement of a non grounded receptacle. I didn't really see anything about not running a separate ground wire, but I'll keep checking.

Another reason I'm for changing over receptacles:

New TVs, computers, electronic equipment all have a three prong plug.

I don't know why I forgot about that since I just had to deal with it. This is a relatively new house, but they cut the grounds back on the romex, twisted them together, and put in ungrounded receptacles. Luckily they didn't cut them back far enough that I couldn't throw a tail on there. They also removed the ground screws from the switches.


The company wiring the homes probably wanted to get out of there. Or the guy wiring that place sucked!

OOO.. I was just thinking about that code. Maybe they added it to the codes in the county by me. That would be an addendum right?

[Rabidsquirrel]

I believe so. Addendum by the AHJ sounds official enough for me.

[rack04]

So the best way to check for a ground is to crack open the receptacle and see if there is a bare ground? Will the ground usually be connected to the receptacle?

[BORIStheBLADE]

So the best way to check for a ground is to crack open the receptacle and see if there is a bare ground? Will the ground usually be connected to the receptacle?

Well if you have a tester you can see without pulling out the plug. I think testing with a tester would be the 100% answer.

Sometimes what you see might not be right.... That sounds like something from the Matrix but I'm serious.

[rack04]

Well if you have a tester you can see without pulling out the plug. I think testing with a tester would be the 100% answer.

Sometimes what you see might not be right.... That sounds like something from the Matrix but I'm serious.

How do I test for ground on a two pronged outlet?

Like this?

http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/PMX1005homeclinic001_large.jpg

[BORIStheBLADE]

Your right.. I was thinking about the three prong plug. So ya you can pull it off the wall and see if a ground wire is in the box.

[BigFrank]

What's the cost different between GFCI breakers and receptacles? Do they get more expensive if you need a 2 pole? Have yet to run into an instance where I need to use GFCI breakers for residential. But then again, Im in the same boat as Boris almost all commercial and industrial work for me., unless its side work.

[fpkjr]

I'm from 488
Not only will the contractor doing the service have to fix all the problems IE. ungrounded plugs, if I'm not mistaken he also has to put arc protection on your upstairs circuits. Perhaps the guys who work on houses could chime in!
I do know with older Metal caze wiring you probally lost your bond to the panel. That being said, GFCI only works as well as the cable/ wire pulled.
You might want to save a major headache and find out what your local Instector wants because the national code is bare minimum.
I'd bite the bullet and rewire the entire home, before you move in!
This cost will more then likely be deducted when closing.
Good luck
F

[Rabidsquirrel]

I'm on the Commercial/Industrial side, but I think I can answer a few questions. From what I've seen, AFCI/GFCI breaks are about $30 plus, while a GFCI receptacle is around $10.

Depending on the AHJ and if the house is being sold FHA, he may or may not have to replace any of the receptacles. You may be able to get that written into your agreement that the owner has to either fix it himself or give you money to do it.

2008 code requires {210.12 (B)} in Dwelling Units that :

All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit

Underlining indicates a change in the code. Now, this only applies to new construction, and only if your area has adopted the code yet. I know Philly is still going off the 2005 code. There are various exceptions, but I doubt anyone is interested in them.

nth edit: I doubt the face plate will be grounded, as per one of the posts about. With the age of the house I'm guessing cloth romex was used, and no pipe or BX.

[BORIStheBLADE]

The new use of the arc faults is a good thing for new homes.It will help with fires and stuff. I got a chance to play with them in some high end homes.

I wouldn't dare try to put them in a house wired already.


To the OP. If you are worried about this electrical work you might want to think about looking at other homes. I don't know if you have a pending offer on this place , but its a thought. You can tell your realtor to see if he or she can find places with an better electrical system.

I don't know how much money or if any the owner will take off the house price. Its still worth a shot to see if they will take less.

If your going to spend money on having an electrician come by and upgrade your service to 100 amp and ground all or some plugs its going to add some more money to the mix.

Where I live service changes go for about $2,000.00 just alone.

[BigFrank]

Where I live service changes go for about $2,000.00 just alone.
Close to that here. 1500-1750 for a 100amp upgrade in server. But then again most houses around here are very old and usually require a little extra work.

[cf2112]

I do this everyday and I WOULD NOT replace the 2 wire receptacles with 3 wire receptacles, it is a code violation. We have replaced 2 wire with GFCI receptacles and run a grounded circuit(s) for the things that need them most (i.e. fridge, washer, computors, tv's ect.) For the $$ upgrade to 200 amps and rewire the house to current code. We are working the 2008 NEC which includes Tamper proof receptacles (both GFCI and regular) and Arc fault breakers. We just finished a duplex (1100 sq ft/unit) with 125 amp panels, GFCI's in kitchens, baths, unfinished spaces and garages all tamper proof recpts and arc fault breakers the cost was well north of 10k. I have not done a single residence remodel yet but have bid a few most are running about 2k for the service and 5-10k for the rewiring.

The 2008 Code has added about $2-3/sq ft to remodeling cost and about $1/sq ft to new constuction costs. What a great time to adopt the code but safety should always be the #1 concern and these change do make a home safer. We do/bid a lot of work in surrounding counties with no code enforcement and our bid-win ratio is now terrible with most contractors hard up for work and not following the most recent Code changes, we try to promote our bids a safer and Code compliant but $$ is the bottom line.

As always hire a Certified/licensed contractor, some will give free estimates. My two cents, Find one who does and see if it is feesible to rewire.

[RGD.]

My wife and I are looking to buy our first home. The house we're looking at was built in 1954. . . . which I guess is common for this period of construction.

Congrats on becoming a homeowner - now the fun begins! No - it was not common construction during the 50's to leave off the ground wire. What was common was the two prong outlet - but that does not mean that you don't have a ground. Just because you (or the inspector) pulled an outlet out and didn't see one - does not mean you don't have one.

My entire work is in residential. Here are the common finds.

1. The ground wire may be attached to the back of the box on the clamp/screw.
2. It may be twisted around the wire before it was inserted into the box.
3. It may be cut short in the sleeve.
4. If you have BX cable it may be pulled back and wrapped around the cable before it was inserted.

I honestly can't remember the last time I found a home without a ground wire - and I work in a lot of old homes (my home is 1956).

Also - go pull off the circuit/fuse box cover and look. See if you have a black/white/copper there. If so - then they are at the box somewhere.


Someone mentioned having the home rewired. Don't toss out this idea. Keep in mind that the electrical needs of a family in the 50's verse now is huge. They had what - a few radios, one TV and maybe a blender and toaster in the kitchen. Compare that to what you have.

During my remodel last year I upgraded my box from the old 60 amp to 200 with a power up. In addition I had them pull damn near every inch of old wiring and replace it all - bringing the house and the new kitchen up to current code. Now we can run the microwave, toaster and the bathroom hair dryer with out blowing a circuit - :D

I could have done it myself - but it was a lot faster hiring an electrician. Plus I went from a 60 amp panel with 22 breakers to a 200 amp with 42 breakers - plus - another sub panel with another 22 breakers - and a 17Kw generator.

Yes it was pricey but worth every penny.

Anyway - good luck with it all.


Ron

[Hitagain]

Heres a link to the Dallas TX electrical requirements: http://www.dallascityhall.com/building_inspection/electrical_section.html

Around here depending what City/County your in, we work under NEC 1999 thru NEC 2008 and of course your always subject to the whim of the local AHJ inspector.
I have to agree with Ron on the fact that the electrical needs of modern household far out way what was needed in the 50's. A full rewire may be worth the cost.
Make sure you get everything in writing in the estimate, DONT ASSUME ANYTHING NOT IN THE BID IS INCLUDED! Also nail down a hourly rate and material markup for any extras before you sign a contract, last thing you need is the extras costing more than the bid job. Be detailed in telling the contractors what you want and get no less than 3 bids. Let each contractor know several people will be bidding on the job, makes them sharpen the pencil a little more. Right now construction work is slow, and contractors are taking work at cost and below to keep there men busy.

Congrats and Good Luck.

Allen

[Rabidsquirrel]

I do this everyday and I WOULD NOT replace the 2 wire receptacles with 3 wire receptacles, it is a code violation.

Is not, per the code I cited above. 406.3(D)(3)(a)/(b)/(c)

[kenstogie]

Wow, remind me to ask electrical questions here.

[Rabidsquirrel]

Wow, remind me to ask electrical questions here.

Ask electrical questions here.

Too soon?

;)

[cf2112]

Is not, per the code I cited above. 406.3(D)(3)(a)/(b)/(c)

I'll check the Code book but where I live you can not replace a 2 wire receptacle with a 3 wire receptacle unless it is GFCI proteced.

[Rabidsquirrel]

That's exactly what the code says. I believe it's the (b), off the top of my head. Post number three says to use a GFCI. Without looking at the code book, I think (a) says that you can use a grounded receptacle, but you have to identify it as an ungrounded receptacle.

[cf2112]

I really need to open the code book more often. It only happens if I feel the need to argue with an inspector, which never really works out to well.:rolleyes:

[Rabidsquirrel]

Whenever I dig it out of my truck, I'll type out the full article.

[BigFrank]

General Installation Requirements
406.3(D)(3)
Non-Grounding-Type Receptacles
-Where attachment to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with...

a. A non grounding type receptacle shall be permitted to be replaced with another non grounding type receptacle.

b. A non grounding type receptacle shall be permitted to be replaced with a GFCI type of receptacle. These receptacles shall be marked "no equipment ground". An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the GFCI type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the GFCI receptacle.

c. A non grounding type receptacle shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding type receptacle where supplied through a GFCI. Grounding type receptacles supplied through the GFCI shale be marked "GFCI protected" and " No equipment ground" An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding type receptacles.



Had to look something up tonight job related so there ya go.

[Rabidsquirrel]

Thanks.

[cf2112]

Thanks!

[fpkjr]

The new use of the arc faults is a good thing for new homes.It will help with fires and stuff. I got a chance to play with them in some high end homes.

I wouldn't dare try to put them in a house wired already.

Boris,
As I undrestand the NEC the use of the Arc Fault was brought about because tofthe wiring in older homes!
While I feel it's a great idea to use them in new home construction I think the statement I quoted would cause more harm.
This is a FYI post -
Check this quote from Mike Holt!
"Studies have shown that over 60 percent of fires are from causes in the fixed wiring, switches, receptacle outlets and lighting fixtures that are part of the fixed electrical system of a residence." In other words, AFCI's are focused on detecting arcing and preventing fires in an area where the risk is significant.

Arcing faults often occur in damaged or deteriorated wires and cords. Some causes of damaged and deteriorated wiring include:

puncturing of wire insulation from picture hanging or cable staples,
poorly installed outlets or switches,
cords caught in doors or under furniture,
furniture pushed against plugs in an outlet,
natural aging,
and cord exposure to heat vents and sunlight."

Several years ago in a yearend class we spent a good deal of time on these
Sorry for dragging this up
With respect
Frank

[BORIStheBLADE]

Boris,
As I undrestand the NEC the use of the Arc Fault was brought about because tofthe wiring in older homes!
While I feel it's a great idea to use them in new home construction I think the statement I quoted would cause more harm.
This is a FYI post -
Check this quote from Mike Holt!
"Studies have shown that over 60 percent of fires are from causes in the fixed wiring, switches, receptacle outlets and lighting fixtures that are part of the fixed electrical system of a residence." In other words, AFCI's are focused on detecting arcing and preventing fires in an area where the risk is significant.

Arcing faults often occur in damaged or deteriorated wires and cords. Some causes of damaged and deteriorated wiring include:

puncturing of wire insulation from picture hanging or cable staples,
poorly installed outlets or switches,
cords caught in doors or under furniture,
furniture pushed against plugs in an outlet,
natural aging,
and cord exposure to heat vents and sunlight."

Several years ago in a yearend class we spent a good deal of time on these
Sorry for dragging this up
With respect
Frank

No insult taken.
I understand what they are good for and glad they have something for this, but......... Arc faults are ONLY supposed to be wired to receptacle circuits if I remember correctly. So with that, almost all older homes shared lights on the recept circuits.

I had a friend lose his house because a light was plugged in behind a couch and the couch was jammed up against it. He told me the firemen said thats were the fire started. That kind of stuff is scary.

The reason why I said I wouldn't dare do it is because I had to spend hours trying to trouble shoot this one bedroom in this new home and one of the other electricians wired it to the lights too. It took me a while to figure it out.

[rack04]

Since I got so many great responses with my first question I decide to throw another one your way.

I'm trying to properly ground my roof mounted antenna. I have come up with the following two options:

1.) Run #10 thhn stranded wire from the antenna mast to the coax grounding block at the point of entry. Run #10 thhn stranded wire from the coax grounding block to a driven 4 ft copper ground rod. Run #6 thhn stranded wire from the 4 ft copper ground rod to the system ground.

2.) Run #10 thhn stranded wire from the antenna mast to the 2" rigid riser. Run #10 thhn stranded wire from the coax grounding block to a driven 4 ft copper ground rod. Run #6 thhn stranded wire from the 4 ft copper ground rod to the system ground. Similar to the picture below except I will be making the connection to the rigid riser above the roof jack.

http://ecmweb.com/nec/702ecmCBfig3.jpg

Option 2 is preferred because I wont have to run the #10 thhn stranded wire along the roof, around the awning, and down the brick wall to connect to the grounding block. Thoughts?

[cf2112]

No insult taken.
I understand what they are good for and glad they have something for this, but......... Arc faults are ONLY supposed to be wired to receptacle circuits if I remember correctly. So with that, almost all older homes shared lights on the recept circuits.


We put AFCI breakers on lights, Recpts, smoke detectprs, basically anything not GFCI protected or a dedicated circuit (fridge, micro, washer, ect.) this is code in our area and I believe NEC also

[Rabidsquirrel]

2008 code requires arc faults on anything not a GFI.

-edit-

To answer the other question, from what I can read in the code, it seems like you need to take a number 10 to your ground. If you have a separate ground rod for your satellite dish, you need to bond that to your service ground with the number 6 you mentioned.

[Old Sailor]

Since I got so many great responses with my first question I decide to throw another one your way.

I'm trying to properly ground my roof mounted antenna. I have come up with the following two options:

1.) Run #10 thhn stranded wire from the antenna mast to the coax grounding block at the point of entry. Run #10 thhn stranded wire from the coax grounding block to a driven 4 ft copper ground rod. Run #6 thhn stranded wire from the 4 ft copper ground rod to the system ground.

2.) Run #10 thhn stranded wire from the antenna mast to the 2" rigid riser. Run #10 thhn stranded wire from the coax grounding block to a driven 4 ft copper ground rod. Run #6 thhn stranded wire from the 4 ft copper ground rod to the system ground. Similar to the picture below except I will be making the connection to the rigid riser above the roof jack.

http://ecmweb.com/nec/702ecmCBfig3.jpg

Option 2 is preferred because I wont have to run the #10 thhn stranded wire along the roof, around the awning, and down the brick wall to connect to the grounding block. Thoughts?

Option 2

fyi - http://members.cox.net/pc-usa/station/ground3.htm

[rack04]

2008 code requires arc faults on anything not a GFI.

-edit-

To answer the other question, from what I can read in the code, it seems like you need to take a number 10 to your ground. If you have a separate ground rod for your satellite dish, you need to bond that to your service ground with the number 6 you mentioned.

Are there any NEC guidelines on burying the #6 ground wire, i.e. depth of cover, distance from drip line, type of wire, etc.?

[Rabidsquirrel]

810.21 (B) says that insulation is not required. You'll need to use copper, because aluminum will rot away in the ground, and you'll want to use copper for at least 18 inches above ground.

Depth, depending what will be traveling on top of it I'd go 18 inches. Drip line really doesn't matter, damp earth conducts better anyway.

Just remember, NEC says that the 8 feet of ground rod has to be underground *and* your connections have to be underground too.

*edit again*

Your ground rods should be at least 6 feet apart to avoid ground loops.

[rack04]

Thanks for the information. I don't understand why NEC requires the ground block attached to the ground rod to be buried. That would make inspection a little difficult.

[BigFrank]

Thanks for the information. I don't understand why NEC requires the ground block attached to the ground rod to be buried. That would make inspection a little difficult.
Most likely to prevent physical damage to the connection i.e. lawn mover, weed wacker.
It would be worthless if the connection was broken. :2

Although the grounding from a ground rod that I have done I always leave the connection visible but below the ground level. Have yet get a fail on that. :2

[Rabidsquirrel]

Thanks for the information. I don't understand why NEC requires the ground block attached to the ground rod to be buried. That would make inspection a little difficult.

I'm guessing because the connection to the rod is the 'weakest' electrical point with the most resistance. Having it buried keeps it in contact with the earth.