What would you do for you canine best friend?

[Blueface]

I have being going through a bit of a tough time with my Maltese Champ.
He is 13 years old and fondly known as the "grumpy old man".
He lives to put his body as close to yours as he can for warmth.

A few weeks ago, the groomer called me to tell me she was concerned with a large lump on his side. I ran to pick him up and immediately took him to the vet. Just five days later, he was operated to remove a rather large mast cell tumor. They are rated from a 1 being benign, to a 3 being the worse case. His was a 2. Unfortunately, the cells extend beyond the extra tissue they took out. So basically, Champ has the cancerous tumor cells in him and likely to recur within 3 to 6 months.

It was recommend I see an Oncologist, which I just did. Basically, after a couple of thousand dollars in the surgery, a few hundred for x-rays post op, I now need to spend another $1,000 in additional tests to see if it has spread or is contained.

If contained, radiation is recommended to the tune of $4,000 which gives him a 95% chance of no recurrence between 1 and 3 years.
If spread, needs chemo, which costs nearly as much, and only has a 50/50 chance of survival/no recurrence at the one year point.

So, not like I can dig up this kind of money overnight. I need to take out some loans and will if I have to. I feel it is nuts to spend this kind of money to try to save him and perhaps not really improve his life but instead make it worse along the way.
On the other hand, he is truly my friend. May sound nuts but I consider him no different than if posed with this issue with a child or family member. I feel I won't be able to rest in peace knowing I didn't give my friend a fighting chance and help him out by doing everything possible. However, his age concerns me. He is 13. He is no spring chicken anymore.

I have an appointment tomorrow with a very renown holistic vet. Let's see his perspective and then it will be decision time.

Any opinion welcome. I am sure in the end, I will be as confused as I am now but at least I will know how others feel about the same issue.

[TheTraveler]

I'm very sorry to hear the bad news about your buddy. I hope things work out for the best.

Man, I'm gonna go home and give mine a few extra hugs tonight.

[icehog3]

It may seem like a lot of money to a third party, Carlos...but he is your friend, part of your family. I know if it were Ganz I would rob a 7-11 if I had to. I will say a prayer, and hope that it all works out for the best.

[fred]

On the other hand, he is truly my friend. May sound nuts but I consider him no different than if posed with this issue with a child or family member.

there is the answer you seek.

Good luck "grumpy old man", prayers for you tonight.

(BTW - my little guy is also "grumpy old man". sit beside you for warmth and a drive in the car is all he wants now)

[G G]

Prayers for your friend.

[ahc4353]

I love dogs and can certainly understand where you are Carlos. Ultimately you are going to have to make the call. My :2 since you asked is as follows based on owning dogs my entire life.

Think about the dog and what's best for him. The money aside, is going through this truly going to improve his remaining years or only make what time he has left harder on him?

We all want to keep them around for as long as we can and I am no different. But at some point we are doing it for us and not them. I have come to peace with it in my own mind, that in the later years of my dogs life I make them as comfortable as I can and hope nature takes it's course. Most times I'm not that lucky and have to end the pain and suffering via euthanasia. At the point my dog is only suffering is the point I make that call. I feel I owe it to them to send them on.

It has to be one of life's hardest decisions to make.

Prayers sent for the both of you.

[Blindjimme]

Prayers sent for you and your friend. You will know what is right.

[SchizoFilly]

My sympathies for you and your tail wagging companion. It's a difficult choice that lay ahead. Much like an aging human family member, this aging canine has special needs. Some want to hold out for one more great memory. Some have enjoyed the ride and just don't want to hurt anymore. Unfortunately, your pal cannot voice his opinion to you. His actions will speak volumes. You know in heart what he wants.

[cle_smoker]

For my lab, I'd do anything as long as it didn't compromise his quality of life. Last year I spent close to $3k on treatments over time and food to get him over an extreme ear infection that lasted several years caused by allergies. Was well worth the money to remove his pain.

Good luck in what you decide. Take him for a long walk this afternoon, I know that thrills my lab more than anything in the world.

[68TriShield]

Tom,Fred and even Al have made good points.

It's a tough call Carlos,no doubt.
If I felt I were prolonging Champs suffering in any way,I would do what none of us like to do.

[ade06]

Only you will know what the right decision is for your family, but either way, I don't think that you can make a wrong decision. Best of luck with your tough decision.

[Mr.Maduro]

I feel for you brother. I really do. There is no easy decision. I'll say a special prayer for the whole family.

Call me if you need to talk.

[markem]

A very difficult and depressing situation, Carlos.

I'd do anything for my greyhound except put him through pain for my sake. As long as his quality of life was good, I'd do what I could.

Prayers for you both, my friend.

[jledou]

Agreed that it is a very hard call to make, but at some point mother nature is going to prevail and 13 years is getting up there. I don't say that lightly as I have had several pets throughout my lifetime and will continue to have more.
Best wishes to you and your family through this time.

[Blueface]

Thanks to all that have posted.

Just wanted to add, if you saw him right now, three weeks post op, after having been split from his spine all the way to his chest on over a third of his circumference, you would not believe that little guy went through that.
He looks great.
He is happy.
Eats well.
Just has some bad stuff in him bound to return.

Anyone have any experience with holistic vets/meds?
I am not confident in it but then again, I am ignorant towards it.
The vet coming tomorrow is not cheap and although highly recommended by the groomer and relied on by many, I just wonder if that is in fact a plausible way to make his remaining life better and spare doping him with chemicals that do more harm and zapping him like a bug with radiation, for 18 treatments in 6 weeks' time.

[Blueface]

FYI for anyone ever going through the same situation.
Did a whole lot of reading today.

Seems the three conventional methods (surgery, radiation and chemo) do more damage to the poor friend than one can imagine. The latter two create serious issues with their immune system, particularly the chemo.
I have learned chemo is not very good at all for him if not spread. Won't help the cause and may harm him more as may not make it through the treatment.
The radiation will burn the heck out of his skin and also may have side effects.

Read quite a bit now on holistic vet treatments for mast cell tumors. Seems their theory that has shown success is to strengthen the immune system via herbs and diet. By doing that, the body fights the mast cells on its own. Stops them from releasing the histamines that cause it to enlarge/reproduce.
Let's see what he tells me tomorrow for my $250 at home consultation fee, herbs and diet extra.

I guess the main thing I learned so far is that spending money and going conventional may work but also causes many other serious concerns.
Not doing anything is a death sentence.
Holistic may work and may not. If I end up relying on it, and it doesn't work, I may end up feeling like I went to a mechanic instead of a proctologist (just to lighten things up, imagine the mechanic's tools to be used on you v. that of a proctologist).

[bigloo]

First, very sorry to hear this. Next, do what is right for the dog. Many vets push thousands of dollars of treatments to make money but never really discuss what is really important which is quality of life for the dog. Good vets can be hard to find. To often these days they dispense tests and treatments that cost thousands before offering good advice. These cancer treatments while prolonging the dogs life often leave the dogs in pain (I have seen it and am totally against these treatments for dogs now). We put dogs down because they cannot let us know about their pain. It is counterintuitive but considering putting down the dog is sometimes best. As long as the dog is recovered, enjoy him but ask about the effects of the treatments not just the desired outcomes if he relapses. Good luck to you and the pooch! Do what is best for the dog in your heart, not what you think is best for you.

[shilala]

I've done a lot of study on Holistic cancer treatment in the past. If it's the right person adminstering the right stuff, success rates are equal to or above that of radiation, chemo, etc.
Being that many herbs and preparations are not fda approved, they can't be used in medicine on people.
I'm not going to make the call on what you should do, Carlos. I will suggest that you keep doing what you're doing. Get educated. You'll make the right decision, you're doing it out of love. :tu

[kelmac07]

Carlos..my heart goes out to ya brother!! I recently had to put two of my closest friends down. About four years ago I had a vet put me through the ringer for about $ 3500 with hopes of a better quality of life for my "Snootch". Test after test for him to tell me he has conjestive heart failure...it tore me apart, and made me mad as hell. Needless to say I do not visit that vet and have told all of friends (any anyone else who will listen) about him. I hope that this vet isn't preying on your love and providing false hopes. In the end, the decision is what's best for your dog and his quality of life. Sending thoughts and prayers brother.

[Texan in Mexico]

Wow! I feel for you Carlos...

I have written and erased my words several times. It is so hard to express sometimes especially when dealing with such an emotional issue - and I am speaking for myself.

I went through something with Hope the Wonder Dog recently and it is just heart wrenching for sure. You sound alot like me, I would throw every resource I have to save them and keep them around. Icehog sums that one up pretty well.

I was very fortunate in that she has made it through a couple surgeries and I value every second, every minute, every hour of every day...

It also made me a bit more aware of my gf and family back home.

You never know when their time comes unfortunately.

I am no one to tell you what to do however try and balance what you are doing for him and what you are doing for you - I think you are already down that path of thinking...

Best wishes and all the prayers and positive thoughts I can muster are headed your way from Cancun. I will definately be thinking of you guys when I see Hope tonight.

All the best brother.

Respectfully,

Travis

[Blueface]

Thanks again to all.
Please keep your comments coming.
Believe me, it really helps after all.
I thought I would be more confused, and in part I still think I will be, but it is truly great therapy and a wealth of knowledge to learn what others have experienced as that may ultimately help me tremendously in my decision.

Just did a bit more reading on my holistic vet.
Here is his information if anyone can shed any light.
www.therightremedy.com

I have heard miracle stories from the groomer, who swears he has saved many of their customers' dogs, including a couple of their own.
Not knowing much about the science, in just reading the basic principles of what makes Champ's tumor grow and what the do for treatment, sure makes a lot of sense.

Will have to wait until after tomorrow's appointment to digest it all with the wife and make the final call on which road we take. In the interim, please keep your comments on this subject coming.

[Blueface]

Well, seems someone is being honest with me from the vet side.
My daughter finally got to speak with her boss (vet facility where he was operated but by another doctor).
Her boss is the chief vet there and owner of the facility and very respected by many as one of the best in South Florida.
He says radiation and chemo is a horrible waste of time and money and gives false hope 50% of the time. The other 50%, it extends life somewhat but the prognosis is not good post a year and it really creates many, many other problems along the way due to their immune system being damaged during treatment. Often times, they die from other things that resulted from being weakened during treatment.

Interestingly enough, he recommended the use of Tahitian Noni Juice that apparently has been proven to reduce this type of tumor from regenerating.
I am trying to find some now but if anyone knows a reputable place that sells it, please let me know. I will try anything that will not negatively impact his remaining life. He is also going to go on Benadryl now which also has been proven to reduce the histimine in the tumor and hence keep it in check from regenerating.

[Texan in Mexico]

I was just going to post and ask you how it was going. I am not familiar with this product but will look for some on the net, I will let you know!

[fred]

Interestingly enough, he recommended the use of Tahitian Noni Juice that apparently has been proven to reduce this type of tumor from regenerating.


Noni is very popular. just google it - there are thousands of people who sell it.

be ready for sticker shock. we used it a few years back and if i recall, it cost several hundred $ a month.

[RGD.]

Carlos -

I have just made a choice for my beagle that is very similar though not exactly as yours.

My beagle, Rusty, is now 15 years old. He has a very large benign tumor/mass on his left shoulder. He has half a dozen other small masses here and there. Over the years the vets all said - it's benign no need to worry about. In the past year the tumor grew very fast - and seems to have stopped now. I have since changed vets - and they want to remove it. It's wrapped around his shoulder and fore-leg (sp?). Estimate to remove: $2500 to $3000 - just for the surgery.

I have in the last 4/5 months spent that much treating ear infections, pink eye, large gnash on his leg and skin problems. Those are without question must treat now, don't even think about it items.

But as you are now - I questioned and have thought long and hard on having the tumors removed.

My decision is - no. I will do everything to make him comfortable and pain free - but no surgery.

Rusty is half blind - some days doesn't even know who I am until he can catch the scent. He is mostly deaf - can't hear a loud clap 4 to 5 feet away. Most mornings - such as this morning - I had to roll him over a couple of times before he would even wake up. And some times he "leaks" when sleeping. He also runs and plays, gets excited (like most beagles) when it's dinner time, lays and rolls on the tumor - and at times just generally acts like a puppy.

But the truth is - he is 15 years old. His is already at the upper end of a beagles expected life span. I will do everything to make sure he is pain free - but no surgery. I won't put him through that at this stage. Surgery is painful and recovery is painful. I know. At his age I will not add this to his life.

And he has had a great life so far. I actually got him to act as a "hearing" dog for another dog we had at the time, Bandit. Bandit lived to be 23 years old - and went deaf at around 19/20 years old. Rusty was trained from the start that when he was called to go and tug on Bandit's collar and bring him. He did an excellent job of that. Actually took longer to house train him than it did that - LOL

Every dog is different and every situation is different Carlos - but know that you are not alone in having to make this tough call. And with that - my thoughts and prayers.


Ron

[Blueface]

Carlos -

I have just made a choice for my beagle that is very similar though not exactly as yours.

My beagle, Rusty, is now 15 years old. He has a very large benign tumor/mass on his left shoulder. He has half a dozen other small masses here and there. Over the years the vets all said - it's benign no need to worry about. In the past year the tumor grew very fast - and seems to have stopped now. I have since changed vets - and they want to remove it. It's wrapped around his shoulder and fore-leg (sp?). Estimate to remove: $2500 to $3000 - just for the surgery.

I have in the last 4/5 months spent that much treating ear infections, pink eye, large gnash on his leg and skin problems. Those are without question must treat now, don't even think about it items.

But as you are now - I questioned and have thought long and hard on having the tumors removed.

My decision is - no. I will do everything to make him comfortable and pain free - but no surgery.

Rusty is half blind - some days doesn't even know who I am until he can catch the scent. He is mostly deaf - can't hear a loud clap 4 to 5 feet away. Most mornings - such as this morning - I had to roll him over a couple of times before he would even wake up. And some times he "leaks" when sleeping. He also runs and plays, gets excited (like most beagles) when it's dinner time, lays and rolls on the tumor - and at times just generally acts like a puppy.

But the truth is - he is 15 years old. His is already at the upper end of a beagles expected life span. I will do everything to make sure he is pain free - but no surgery. I won't put him through that at this stage. Surgery is painful and recovery is painful. I know. At his age I will not add this to his life.

And he has had a great life so far. I actually got him to act as a "hearing" dog for another dog we had at the time, Bandit. Bandit lived to be 23 years old - and went deaf at around 19/20 years old. Rusty was trained from the start that when he was called to go and tug on Bandit's collar and bring him. He did an excellent job of that. Actually took longer to house train him than it did that - LOL

Every dog is different and every situation is different Carlos - but know that you are not alone in having to make this tough call. And with that - my thoughts and prayers.


Ron

Ron,

23 yrs? Amazing!!!

You can only imagine what it was like to see my buddy slit from the top of his back, right at his spine, all the way around to his chest, taking up nearly half of his body. It was not a pleasant sight. I have photos and dare not post them.

What I found amazing is their ability to heal compared to us humans. Within 10 days, the wound was totally sealed, barely showing any scabs. Three weeks later, it is a faint mark. He came home from surgery, just four hours post and was running around and chasing my grandson down.

What I can imagine at all is one option they gave me which was to open him up again, cut around the current incision and remove another large area and then sew him back up again. At this point, I say leave him alone until which time another one grows.

I guess what makes this so difficult for me is while I have had two dogs in the past, many, many years ago, the first I had to give away almost as soon as I got him. The second one was really my parents'. When I moved out and moved away, he stayed with them and I saw him seldom. These two guys I have now are what I would call my first dogs that I have had for 12 yrs on one and 13 on the other. I guess this is really the first time I am going through this and why it is so difficult. While my second one is loved as much as this one and while I am sure I will feel it when it is his time, it seems Champ will be the first for me. I have reliving so many fond memories of him as result that I perhaps would have never thought of. Those thoughts will always be with me.

[RGD.]

Yes - an amazing age for a simply amazing dog. As fate would have it - we acquired him as an abandoned dog at the time we were moving from Indiana to here in Virginia. On the day before the actual move he was in an accident and due to the move was seen by three different vets. They all stated he was at least 3 years old and possibly up to 5 years old. We always used the 3 years when stating his age - so he could have been 25 years old.

I have always had dogs since as early as I can remember with the exception of college and three years in the Army. And Bandit was simply a gift from heaven. He did suffer two major injuries - he once torn a saliva duct which caused a backup and choking of his artery in his neck. Surgery there. And was once mauled by two very large dogs - 9 months of surgery and skin grafts to repair - you don't even want to know the cost.

We love them, they love us and they are family. It's tough when we have to make these calls, as I had to do with Bandit and now with Rusty. But it's that same love which will help you decide the best course - and the hard part is - not what's best for you - but for them.


Ron

[ahc4353]

... But it's that same love which will help you decide the best course - and the hard part is - not what's best for you - but for them.


Ron

Could not have said it better.

[Blueface]

We love them, they love us and they are family. It's tough when we have to make these calls, as I had to do with Bandit and now with Rusty. But it's that same love which will help you decide the best course - and the hard part is - not what's best for you - but for them.

Coming to that realization.

Just thought about it earlier. Of the few options, here is the probability:
1 - 50% chance of recurrence if opened up again and further cut
2 - 50% chance of recurrence with chemo
3 - 50% chance of recurrence if only treated with steroids and Benadryl
4 - 50% chance of recurrence if you do nothing

Boy, when looking at it as I just wrote it, truly a no brainer for the overall quality of life of Champ. For sure, one and two are out of the question based on what I have learned at this point.