Sometimes you call a spade a spade

[SilverFox]

I logged in today to find a PM from one of my good friends on CA who is also effected by this. What this person told me was that hardcz has been banned. I scanned and scanned for any posts or threads related to what may have happened. Now I can suppose, assume or guess but I won't. The team of 11 had their reasons and they may or may not have coincided with what happened.

I have waffled back and forth about posting something here and have talked to a few people. It was being handled behind the scenes, I was a good soldier and stood down. Now it appears as though this is situation will just go away quietly. I am going to do my best to be factual and non judgemental about this situation but I think that the facts bear telling.

Fact - on March 16 I was invited by hardcz via PM to join a GB he was running for some custom sticks (I refrain from saying which ones as it is not relevant to the point and this vendor should not be viewed in the same light).

Fact - on March 31 I confirmed my interest and order level to hardcz as well as Vitola and sent him $652.93 (I can provide the transaction logs to support this) via electronic transaction

Fact - Over the course of the last 4 months I have on 3 occasions been told my order was complete and that it would be mailed expediently. The last of which was an openly posted DC number here THREAD (http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18091&page=2&highlight=group) .

Fact - On June 28 I was informed via email from hardcz that not only was I not going to get the volume that I was expecting but that there was also a mix up in the vitola, this results in my getting 40% of something I didn't order. At this point I am looking to recuop anything

Fact - It is July 27 and the DC number has not yet been scanned in at the departure point yet it was generated on July 14. The click and ship label was made for that number but to go where? It was never scanned at the mailing point, hence not recieved.

Fact - I have yet to recieve anything and Dan has failed to respond to my last 2 emails.

Now there are many other things I have heard via third party, and by those directly involved in this same group buy but I have no facts and therefore will not say anything there.

I am not sure to what benefit there is in saying nothing. Having posted here I do not expect any recourse, I do not expect my money back, I do not expect my order to be filled. What I expect is to move on having $652.93 less than I did before all this.

I do not hold any of the team of 11 or CA responsible in anyway. I do not feel it is there responsibility to try to police trading/group buys/sales/purchase in any way. I hold all of them in the utmost respect.

Now over my time on this forum (I combine the CS days as well) I have had a couple of deals gone bad. I am sure many of us who have done any trading has had it happen. The trade wasn't quite even, it took longer than it should have, product was damage or destroyed in transit. These things happen.

I am not talking about that, what I am seeing here at this point is that a person has taken my money for a service they were to render and has yet to render that service nor have they responded to any communication regarding that service so hence my conclusion is that this person has no intention in providing the service for which I paid. So effectively it is as if he reached into my pocket and took from me $652.93.

The reason I post this is that I don't think brushing it under the carpet and letting it quietly go away is right. hardcz has in my opinion based on the facts above done something that should be made public to his group of piers on this board. It should be known that at the time of this post he has failed to live up to an agreement that he made and took money for.

This should not be taken as a precursor to every transaction, I have done deals since and will continue dealing with people, I will be as cautious as I can be and limit my exposure but if something of the same ilk were to happen again, I will state the facts as well.

I have been careful in my wording to insure that I avoid inserting feeling and or insinutation here and I hope that I have not transgressed some unwritten rule of the forum for what I have said.

If you want the facts I will share them, I have nothing to hide.

Draw your own conclusions.

[bigloo]

Shawn,

Sorry to hear about your financial loss. As many members here frequent other boards too I for one am happy to hear this info, while he is banned here he might not be banned elsewhere. While the chances of me dealing with him before this were slim, they are zero now. Thanks for looking out for the rest of us.

[rrplasencia]

Sorry to hear shawn, you're right this could have happened to anybody, but i'm both saddened and pi$$ed off that this happen to someone like you, who is (to quote Scott) "generous to a fault" with people within this community.

[Emjaysmash]

I too was taken for a loop like Shawn. Not for nearly as much, but I feel his pain.

There was a time I called Dan my friend, when I would have even tried to defend him... quite honestly it's a slap in the face to myself and our BOTLs. Atleast he can't swindle us anymore...

[Darrell]

He took you for $600+?

I'm sorry, but if someone took me for $600+, I'd kick their ass!!!!

[Skywalker]

Well said Shawn!!!

[RGD.]

The very bottom line is that it's theft - plain and simple. People go to jail for a lot less.


Ron

[GoatLocker]

Well, this does suck, but thanks for coming forward with a very restrained, to the point post. I can only hope that he eventually makes good to all parties involved, but he is a noob to the cigar community, and is just as likely to walk away from it. As stated on the other thread, it's up to folks to use their own judgment when buying, selling and trading online. I think people often mistake post count and "ring gauge", along with friendly online banter with character, knowledge and friendship. If your post makes anyone think twice before sending money to a relative stranger, then it will have served a noble purpose.

The very bottom line is that it's theft - plain and simple. People go to jail for a lot less.
:tpd:

[poker]

I will admit that I feel your loss. Not only of someone you thought was a friend, but also of the large monetary loss. Banning Dan was not a decision that came easily for us nor did it happen without much thought & discussion.
When we notice that he is active on places like Facebook, yet fails to respond to not only other members PM's & emails, but to also ignore admin sent PM's & emails, it gives us little choice. His ban here we felt, would have no impact on whether he would honor any and all outstanding debts or not. He has had many chances to right the wrongs. Playing a blind eye is not the right way.

As part of the decision making in his banning, I wish to apologize to anyone who was taken by Dan, whether it was for 6 dollars or 600. We try to look out for folks, but it is something that we just cant do 100% effectively. We do however try to the best of our ability.

If anyone wishes to, email or PM any admin and we can get any message to him if he chooses to read it.

Kelly

[Old Sailor]

I for one was in a GB with Dan, abiet a small one compared to Shawn and others who will remain nameless and are out $$$$. IMHO, Dan burnt his bridges here...hopefully he will make good on all the gb's.
I don't hold anyone here, including the Mods as responsible as yes it is the old addage, buyer beware. Well....we have seen his true colours now, and now we all have to live and learn. Shawn and others who are affected, take solice in knowing what comes around goes around. :2

[DPD6030]

Shawn,
I feel your pain. He is not to be named kept sending me invites to his group buys as well. I've met him and he is an a$$. I'm not here to bash him but ever since he tried selling me some cigars that I knew he got on sale for a price that was the full asking price when not on sale I cut my ties to him. I even took him off my buddy list. Since I am an LEO this whole cluster is definitely a fraud. I don't want to see him locked up but he should make right his wrongs and be done with it. :2

Not to mention him posting D/C #s to passes, MAW and others only not having them sent for a month! If you can't get stuff out in a week max then don't get involved.:fl

[Waynegro1]

I really feel for you, Shawn and others that got nailed on this. I was emailed months ago about these GB's by Dan and something just seemed strange. I chose not to get in on the GB's and I guess it's a blessing I didn't bite.
I honestly didn't see this coming. He was a proven member of our little community on CS/CA and I'm really shocked. I, like, M.J. considered him a stand up fella and someone I called a friend. I'm very angry about this!! I just keep thinking about the problems he was having and how much advise I gave.
I guess you really never know someone, but to me, a man's word is worth more than anything else. You say you'll do something you damn well better do it no matter how minuscule the task may be. I just hope he makes it right (somehow). Even though many of us haven't met in person I consider many on here "REAL" friends. You can't get much lower than stealing from friends, and that's what it appears he has done.

You said what had to be said in a very respectful manner, Shawn. I would of been a bit more surly. You're an honest and generous person, as many here in the Asylum are, and this just saddens me. What comes around goes around, he'll get his.
That's all I have to say.

[massphatness]

I think this whole situation underscores the need for all of us to leave relevant trader feedback. I know I'm one of those "benefit of the doubt" people who will bend over backwards to be understanding and see the other side in a transaction. I don't think I've ever left negative trader feedback even though I've been in a few problem transactions. In the end, my unwillingness to act is a detriment to the community at large.

I forget sometimes that I truly know very few of you. We interact on the board and we call each other "friends," but that's easy in a vacuum. You post. I respond. We banter. Meanwhile neither of us truly KNOWS the other. Obviously there are a handful of guys here that I do know well because I've met them, hung with them and developd a real relationship with them. But for the vast majority, we're nothing more than posts on a web page to each other. However, I think nothing of it when someone says, "bro, you down for a split of XYZ sticks?" Off goes my check or PP pmt. 99% of the time it works out just fine because I'd like to think that 99% of the members here are legit. But we still need to be careful. And we have to do a better job of taking care of each other by utilizing the trader feedback system for something more than gratuitous platitude system it currently is.

How many guys would have gotten involved with Dan if he had 3 or 4 negative trader ratings? That's on us guys. Everyone of us who got burned by Dan -- and I'm in that group -- left the rest of the board open to more predatory behavior because we didn't want to be seen as the bad guy who left a negative rating. We wanted to believe that scumbags don't exist on the board, and in doing so we failed those who came after us.

The next time I'm involved in a pass, a trade or a GB where someone goes AWOL or doesn't live up to their end of the bargain or misses a deadline without clear and prompt communication, I'm leaving negative feedback. And I will do so out of respect for the others on this board.

That doesn't mean I'm going to go red dot happy. Case in point, in my mind, as to how it should be done. Moe & Fred recently ran a group buy that ran into a couple situations where things got delayed. But I was never, ever in doubt that things would be resolved because of the wonderful job they did communicating with the board, explaining the circumstances and outlining next steps. They get kudos & props for the way they handled that GB.

But make no mistake. There ARE other Dan's out there. And shame on us if we don't alert the rest of the board to problem transactions going forward.

[Thrak]

If this was across state lines its a federal offense, especially since he used USPS to commit fraud.

$652 is alot of change to just throw your hands up and forget about... Contact your local police and see if they can help.

[14holestogie]

Well said, Vin. :tu

Sorry for your trouble, Shawn. :(

Knock on wood, but so far, I've had no issues that a few pm's haven't resolved, but I have no doubt with enough transactions, some are not going to go as one would hope. Honest, unbiased feedback will help alert others.

[fissure]

Hate to see this happen to anyone. Can't say I didn't see something like this happening sooner or later. Piss poor communication and always out to get something out of a deal for himself would catch up to him eventually. Guess I gave him the benefit of the doubt since I knew him and herfed with him many times. It saddens me that anyone can be this low of a person.

Anyone up for a surprise herf at his new house:bx:fl:r:r

[elderboy02]

I am one of the people that Dan has screwed over. I received a PM stating that he was going to ship my cigars and then he didn't. Stay classy Dan. :hm

[skibumdc]

Woof.
This is just bad.
$650 is not something to be taken lightly. $20, $40 we can all live with that.
This is above and beyond bad.

[TripleF]

It bothers me deeply Shawn that you had to experience this. Makes me hang my head.....

In all your personal trouble, thank you for taking the time to inform us.

[adampc22]

sorry to hear about that man i also know how its feels to be ripped off by a guy u thought was a good botl and a mate it was NOT dan that ripped me off tho

[poker]

Remember guys, a members trade status is only as good as his last trade. Previous feedback is not really relevant.

[Scottw]

Surprising enough, I gave Dan neg trader ratings and he PM'ed me offering to send me replacement sticks and "make things right" between us. I told him that I understood that he was having a rough time and that it was unneccesary for him to send more sticks. I thought this was an attempt by him to do the right thing with everyone or at least apologize. Shawn, so sorry to hear this, I would take some action though even if it is informing the authorities in his local area. That's a good amount of money right there.

[massphatness]

Remember guys, a members trade status is only as good as his last trade. Previous feedback is not really relevant.

I understand the logic of what you're saying, Kelly, but I have to disagree a bit. If we're truly only as good as our last trade, then why not configure the system to only show the last trader feedback? In my mind, the feedback system COULD be useful to gauge a members overall ability to follow through on his commitments to other members. If nothing else, it shows a pattern. Should that pattern be strewn with negative feedback, I would think it would cause some people to think twice about dealing with the person -- or at the very least, take the necessary precautions; having the other guy ship first, for instance. But if I get dicked over by someone and fail to leave trader feedback, I basically give the offending member a pass to do it again to someone else.

That's not to say your point isn't without merit. I have 100+ trader feedback, but I COULD just decide to put the royal screwing on the next guy I deal with. However, the pattern I've established suggests otherwise.

The system isn't foolproof, but it's all we've got. And it can be very useful, IMHO, but only if we use it in the manner it was intended.

[St. Lou Stu]

If this was across state lines its a federal offense, especially since he used USPS to commit fraud.

$652 is alot of change to just throw your hands up and forget about... Contact your local police and see if they can help.

Not only was it across state lines, but country borders. This has gone Galactic. Notify the Federation.

Thanks for the post Shawn. Nice to see facts.

[rrplasencia]

I understand the logic of what you're saying, Kelly, but I have to disagree a bit. If we're truly only as good as our last trade, then why not configure the system to only show the last trader feedback? In my mind, the feedback system COULD be useful to gauge a members overall ability to follow through on his commitments to other members. If nothing else, it shows a pattern. Should that pattern be strewn with negative feedback, I would think it would cause some people to think twice about dealing with the person -- or at the very least, take the necessary precautions; having the other guy ship first, for instance. But if I get dicked over by someone and fail to leave trader feedback, I basically give the offending member a pass to do it again to someone else.

That's not to say your point isn't without merit. I have 100+ trader feedback, but I COULD just decide to put the royal screwing on the next guy I deal with. However, the pattern I've established suggests otherwise.

The system isn't foolproof, but it's all we've got. And it can be very useful, IMHO, but only if we use it in the manner it was intended.
:tpd: i've had several transactions with a botl here, i never had any problems, he was great to deal with, i didn't know that he had some issues with a buddy of mine on the forum that was now being handled by the 11, think you eventually kept him out of wts threads, maybe if you get dinged you should be kept out of wts for a certain time, but it goes back to you have to be honest with feedback

[GoldnGT]

I'm not sure what you bought from him, but this is not any different than a situation that a friend of mine recently went through with a Supercharger purchase for his son's car at a loss of just over $1000 bucks. This is considered internet fraud and if wanted, you could press charges against him... assuming you have his legit contact information. I can talk to my friend that just went through all of this and PM you the process he went through when he went through and pressed charges against the guy for the supercharger if you want. Lemme know.

[poker]

I understand the logic of what you're saying, Kelly, but I have to disagree a bit. If we're truly only as good as our last trade, then why not configure the system to only show the last trader feedback? In my mind, the feedback system COULD be useful to gauge a members overall ability to follow through on his commitments to other members. If nothing else, it shows a pattern. Should that pattern be strewn with negative feedback, I would think it would cause some people to think twice about dealing with the person -- or at the very least, take the necessary precautions; having the other guy ship first, for instance. But if I get dicked over by someone and fail to leave trader feedback, I basically give the offending member a pass to do it again to someone else.

That's not to say your point isn't without merit. I have 100+ trader feedback, but I COULD just decide to put the royal screwing on the next guy I deal with. However, the pattern I've established suggests otherwise.

The system isn't foolproof, but it's all we've got. And it can be very useful, IMHO, but only if we use it in the manner it was intended.

I understand your point and agree Vin. I guess what I was referring to was that folks can change at any time. Life shows up and if a persons desperate enough, theres no saying what a person would or wouldn't do. A sad fact of life is that sometimes good folks go bad.

Also...
Those who have been on cigar forums for any length of time have probably already witnessed "the set-up artist". You know, a guy joins a board not unlike this one. He follows all the rules. He establishes himself as a stand up good guy. He sets up trades for good or hard to find cigars. He organizes or participates in group buys. He bombs a few key individuals. He puts not only the time in, but also spends some cash as well. He looks like 200 other great folks to the outside online world.
The problem is, its all a set up. He has placed himself exactly where he wants and planned to be. Many well respected members consider him a stand up guy. Even though the new members dont know him personally, they see other obviously well respected members do appear to know him. His audience is quite large at this point.

He has great trader references. He's been around for a while. He's actually met a few folks.
Then he lists group buys. He lists box splits he organized. He might list multiple boxes of expensive hard to find or highly desirable cigars for sale. Possibly even at multiple forums.



....and once he has your money....





...."poof". Like magic, he disappears. Just like that.


Im not saying thats Dan, but it has happened in the past by some and will be tried again by others.

[icehog3]

That's not to say your point isn't without merit. I have 100+ trader feedback, but I COULD just decide to put the royal screwing on the next guy I deal with. However, the pattern I've established suggests otherwise.


I disagree with your disagreement, Vin. (Sounds a little like John Cleese, huh?) :r

Dan's "established pattern" suggested otherwise as well.....50 positives and not a single negative. Not until that first negative appeared would anyone who had not dealt with Dan on these last trades/splits have a clue he had become untrustworthy. JHMO.

[poker]

Heres a short list of folks who have in the past took advantage of communities like ours. Keep in mind the list goes back quite a ways.

http://www.vitolas.net/wiki/scumbags/list

[ahc4353]

I would like to see his user-name still listed with an explanation of why he was banned. Maybe banned inmates go to the top of the Inmate List like the old Ten Most Wanted. This might help others who might interact with him on other boards and not know his history. :2 (I'm sure the 11 have a valid reason for removing him I just don't know what that is. :))

Thank you for posting your facts Shawn. Seems Hardcz's actions (or lack of) has told his side of the story and now we have yours. Only one of many from what understand. It's nice to have the ability to see both sides of an issue when making a judgement on ones integrity.

[pnoon]

I would like to see his user-name still listed with an explanation of why he was banned. Maybe banned inmates go to the top of the Inmate List like the old Ten Most Wanted. This might help others who might interact with him on other boards and not know his history. :2 (I'm sure the 11 have a valid reason for removing him I just don't know what that is. :))



That is not an option. It is embedded withinn the vBulletin software that banned use3rs are removed from the members list. He was not consciously removed from the list.

[ahc4353]

That is not an option. It is embedded withinn the vBulletin software that banned use3rs are removed from the members list. He was not consciously removed from the list.


Thank you sir.

[poker]

For those who were taken by Dan, you can leave feedback here: (I think)

http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/itrader.php?u=225


Please dont leave feedback unless you were actually involved.

[kaisersozei]

Shawn, I am sorry & outraged for all the trouble Hardcz has caused to you and other stand-up members on this board.

Like others, I have previously been reluctant to leave negative feedback. Earlier this spring, Dan & I were in a sticks-for-sticks trade that never really happened--I sent him my end of some pretty choice smokes, and despite his numerous PMs promising to "get something out right away," nothing ever materialized. I took his previous good-standing at face value and I chalked it up to "sh*t happens," and just moved on. Besides, I didn't want to be the first person to tarnish his trader reputation.

Hindsight being what it is, I wish I had used the system the way it was designed and left negative feedback. Not sure if it would have prevented any of this, but it might have raised some questions. I apologize for my omission, and commit that it won't happen again. Deals gone bad will get negative feedback.

This event and Poker's post about scammers is a perfect example of why we should use the system the way it was intended.

[GoldnGT]

That is not an option. It is embedded withinn the vBulletin software that banned use3rs are removed from the members list. He was not consciously removed from the list.

You could always add a new usergroup called "banned" or "kicked out" or whatever you wanna name it, give it access to nothing, and that way it would still show up in the members list.

You could also install the Miserable Users addon and put him in that usergroup :r

[aich75013]

Wow. Sorry to hear about this.
Sometimes my wife and I watch the news and wonder how people can do the things they do.

[croatan]

In response to those recommending some criminal legal action be taken in this matter, I'd just like to remind you all that cigar communities are most comfortable flying under the radar, so to speak. It shouldn't take too much thought on the subject to figure out why this would be the case.

I don't think most here would care to have their pms and posts subpoenaed as part of an investigation. People like their privacy, degree of anonymity, and any scrutiny would be detrimental.

Of course, I don't think that SilverFox would want things to go to that level, I just felt it prudent to be clear on the above points.

[hotreds]

A shame and very sad. Alas, there is not much that can be done about this except after the fact- as is so often the case with crime. Thanks very much for your tempered and clear post, Shawn! I do agree that you could follow through on this- mail fraud is one option.

What is pleasing is that this is very much the exception in this fratenity and the outrage such behavior engenders.

[ahc4353]

In response to those recommending some criminal legal action be taken in this matter, I'd just like to remind you all that cigar communities are most comfortable flying under the radar, so to speak. It shouldn't take too much thought on the subject to figure out why this would be the case.

I don't think most here would care to have their pms and posts subpoenaed as part of an investigation. People like their privacy, degree of anonymity, and any scrutiny would be detrimental.

Of course, I don't think that SilverFox would want things to go to that level, I just felt it prudent to be clear on the above points.

:tpd: I have enough headaches right now. :D

[poker]

FYI: Even banned members are now visible in the memberlist

[Negncic]

Shawn, I am sorry & outraged for all the trouble Hardcz has caused to you and other stand-up members on this board.

Like others, I have previously been reluctant to leave negative feedback. Earlier this spring, Dan & I were in a sticks-for-sticks trade that never really happened--I sent him my end of some pretty choice smokes, and despite his numerous PMs promising to "get something out right away," nothing ever materialized. I took his previous good-standing at face value and I chalked it up to "sh*t happens," and just moved on. Besides, I didn't want to be the first person to tarnish his trader reputation.

Hindsight being what it is, I wish I had used the system the way it was designed and left negative feedback. Not sure if it would have prevented any of this, but it might have raised some questions. I apologize for my omission, and commit that it won't happen again. Deals gone bad will get negative feedback.

This event and Poker's post about scammers is a perfect example of why we should use the system the way it was intended.

:tpd: :mad: at myself

[Negncic]

FYI: Even banned members are now visible in the memberlist

I like his new avatar. :D

[pnoon]

FYI: Even banned members are now visible in the memberlist

I stand (sit) corrected.

Sorry, Al.

[ahc4353]

I stand (sit) corrected.

Sorry, Al.


No problem here. :)

And if you sort by rep it puts the banned guys on the last page. :tu

[Kreth]

I'm sorry to hear that some of you got scammed. I participated in the coaster bomb for Dan a while back and he seemed like a decent guy. Just remember that according to the Hindu belief of karma, he'll probably come back as a tobacco beetle in his next life.

[mrreindeer]

I'm really truly sorry to hear about this. Makes me sick, actually. We come to this board to learn, make friends and lifelong bonds over a common intrest that brings us together in the first place. Just like my craigslist scam thread, yes, we know scammers are out there and it's very unfortunate if some get through to us here on CA but it's certainly easy to feel a false sense of security when you're surrounded by such good people as we are here on CA.

I'm on the internet fraud bandwagon...privacy issues aside (even though I understand them), I do think you guys should take legal action against Dan (who I had also called a friend) and anybody else who steals from you. And that is exactly what he has done.

That, or, hey, how many of you guys have his address from bombs & trades huh? Michigan, right?.....anyone want to form a militia? (I'm certainly not suggesting this; I think the legal route is the way to go....hey, somebody's got to have his address to put on the report...).

Heres a short list of folks who have in the past took advantage of communities like ours. Keep in mind the list goes back quite a ways.

http://www.vitolas.net/wiki/scumbags/list

Hey Kelly - I don't see kumarusc on there...what's up with that?

Again, guys, it pains me to hear about this. As far as I'm concerned, you attack a friend, you should expect the wrath from all of us. Even though I'm kind of a wimp, I can still write words that hurt so Shawn, Vin, M.J., Dave, elderboy, we got your back.

[poker]

I didnt make the list.

[mrreindeer]

I didnt make the list.

;)

[mrreindeer]

Lookie here....I also have his phone number....if any of you would like it, I'd be happy to give it up. You know, for the fraud report.....or to order a pizza.

[pnoon]

I'm on the internet fraud bandwagon...privacy issues aside (even though I understand them), I do think you guys should take legal action against Dan (who I had also called a friend) and anybody else who steals from you. And that is exactly what he has done.


I understand how you feel but please read what was posted not too long ago.
In response to those recommending some criminal legal action be taken in this matter, I'd just like to remind you all that cigar communities are most comfortable flying under the radar, so to speak. It shouldn't take too much thought on the subject to figure out why this would be the case.

I don't think most here would care to have their pms and posts subpoenaed as part of an investigation. People like their privacy, degree of anonymity, and any scrutiny would be detrimental.

Of course, I don't think that SilverFox would want things to go to that level, I just felt it prudent to be clear on the above points.

[mrreindeer]

I know Peter, I know....I just want the guilty to fry...it's hard, I'm resisting, I'm resisting. I sit here resisting. Makes sense.

[elderboy02]

I am not in favor of taking legal action. If he wants to screw me, fine. I don't have time to deal with investigations, etc.

[MajorCaptSilly]

I got took for $158.00. Fortunately, I used PP and was able to recoup most of the money. I started the case with them after I saw the negative feedback starting to show up on his trader page. I did my purchase off board so I did not leave feedback. Isn't that normal protocol?

Thanks,

MCS

[Skywalker]

Heres a short list of folks who have in the past took advantage of communities like ours. Keep in mind the list goes back quite a ways.

http://www.vitolas.net/wiki/scumbags/list

How do we add Dan to the list???:confused:

Is it possible to start a list of our own as a Sticky (with rules of course)???

[SilverFox]

A couple of things.

My thanks to you who have either PM'd me, emailed me or spoken kind words here to me. It was not my intent this be a poor Fox thread, I went into this deal with my head up knowing that I could lose my money as I do on every deal.

It was to present the facts I had for others to be aware.

As for the legal action, I am in agreement with Poker.

An interesting point I didn't think of arrising from this was Vin's point that we all bear a culpability to provide honest trader feedback on all deals good and bad. Being a "nice guy" and not saying the truth compromises any value the trader feedback tool has to other users.

On a more smug note........I too am a firm believer in Karma..........Cigar Beetle, I like that.

[14holestogie]

On a more smug note........I too am a firm believer in Karma..........Cigar Beetle, I like that.



Listen for the "pop." :)

[yourchoice]

we all bear a culpability to provide honest trader feedback on all deals good and bad. Being a "nice guy" and not saying the truth compromises any value the trader feedback tool has to other users.


I did my purchase off board so I did not leave feedback. Isn't that normal protocol?



I'm actually struggling with a similar question Scott. I have an "off board" deal that hasn't been satisfied and am not sure if neg feedback is appropriate. Since it's off board I can see why it shouldn't be, but if someone else got scammed by the same person and I didn't give neg feedback I'd feel pretty rotten.

[marge796]

There are bad apples in every bushel, unfortunately.


:(


Chris.....

[Kreth]

A couple of things.

My thanks to you who have either PM'd me, emailed me or spoken kind words here to me. It was not my intent this be a poor Fox thread, I went into this deal with my head up knowing that I could lose my money as I do on every deal.
Speaking as a noob, it's somewhat disheartening to see you and the others who responded here, who I've seen participate faithfully in all kinds of trades, PIFs, MAWs, bombs, etc; get taken like this.
I've been amazed by the the thoughtfulness and generosity of the members of this forum. Case in point, my new baby thread. It's usually the proud dad's job to hand out some sticks. Apparently not on CA. I have several packages headed my way from B(S)oTL here. I'm keeping tabs, and I'll certainly return the favor as well as bomb some fellow noobs as finances (and my current lack of sleep :r) allow.

[HK3-]

Sorry to hear of your loss Shawn (and the others who were taken for a ride). I was invited to this GB and stood back because things seemed a bit fishy with this cat. Not long after he received payments I got a text message from him saying he was passing my exit off the highway coming from a western state where he drove to purchase a new dog. So, my point is that he did in fact have the $ to refund everyone but chose not to.

While I wish it could happen - I don't think legal action would be wise especially considering the fact that nobody was planning on paying the taxes that would have been owed on the products being purchased. :2

[ade06]

Assuming the GP was for embargoed cc, aside from what has already been mentioned, an illegal contract (e.g. agreement to purchase illegal goods) is unenforceable. Therefore, the agreement itself is likely null and void. I'm not saying that he couldn't be criminally liable for fraud or theft (I don't practice criminal law), but any action would likely open up a can of worms that would be detrimental to the community as a whole. Caveat Emptor (buyer beware)! Some people (even friends and family) just suck!

[ahc4353]

I have a MOD question.

If Member A is taken advantage of on ANOTHER board by Member B and BOTH are members of THIS board, is it OK for Member A to post negative feedback on THIS board?

[Resipsa]

I'm actually struggling with a similar question Scott. I have an "off board" deal that hasn't been satisfied and am not sure if neg feedback is appropriate. Since it's off board I can see why it shouldn't be, but if someone else got scammed by the same person and I didn't give neg feedback I'd feel pretty rotten.

Always been my understanding Joel that if it didn't happen here, don't leave feedback for it here.

I'm sure one of our hosts will correct me if I'm wrong

[pnoon]

Always been my understanding Joel that if it didn't happen here, don't leave feedback for it here.

I'm sure one of our hosts will correct me if I'm wrong

Yep. That is the general practice.

[ahc4353]

Yep. That is the general practice.

Can you explain why? Makes zero sense to me. What difference does the board have it's the person that makes or breaks a deal.

Thanks in advance.

[Darrell]

Can you explain why? Makes zero sense to me. What difference does the board have it's the person that makes or breaks a deal.

Thanks in advance.

I think it has to do with not bringing drama from one place to another.

[ahc4353]

I think it has to do with not bringing drama from one place to another.

I agree not in a thread. But I do see value and no harm putting it in the feedback system.

[pnoon]

Can you explain why? Makes zero sense to me. What difference does the board have it's the person that makes or breaks a deal.

Thanks in advance.
Sorry you don't agree or understand, Al. But that is just the way we have decided to conduct things here. The TOE have enough on our plate. Allowing what you propose would necessitate us being up on what goes on everywhere else. (Rhetorical questions: How many other boards would you have us monitor? What about private boards?) It would open up a huge can of worms and none of us have the time or inclination to do so.

[OLS]

Assuming the GP was for embargoed Therefore, the agreement itself is likely null and void. but any action would likely open up a can of worms that would be detrimental to the community as a whole. Caveat Emptor (buyer beware)! Some people (even friends and family) just suck!This is where I will end up replying, although I wanted to reply to the person that stated that there was a real case, crossing state lines, etc. I laughed out loud, I am sorry to say. Not to deride the person who said this, but in a general way, I was thinking, 'yup, it's easy to give advice to the "other person" who then has to act on his ironclad case involving illegal goods'. Haha, priceless. A person who rips a person on a coke deal knows there is only one threat. Revenge. Because they are not going to tell the cops they got ripped off in a coke deal. There is no legal recourse. This is why I do not trade. Some people will laugh about that statement, and you know who you are. But buy what you like, then get together with friends and smoke it. All this trading and piles of money and hurt feelings is eventually bad for everybody. In a metaphysical sort of way, anyway. But when you come out on the losing end, you really only have two recourses.
One is the old show up at the door. Two is to make sure that he can't operate in the dark on your board. You showed alot of restraint using option two. When I DO deal with people, I tell them that my good name is my guarantee. What good is the internet cigar community if I can't enjoy it with my head up?

[massphatness]

What about private boards?

Can I join?

[poker]

Can you explain why? Makes zero sense to me. What difference does the board have it's the person that makes or breaks a deal.

Thanks in advance.

If a transaction at another site went bad, it would certainly make sense to leave negative trader feedback at THAT site.

When we first started Cigar Asylum, the 11 of us decided that everyone here would be able to start fresh. What happened at other boards, what happened 2 years ago, etc was pretty much null and void. Everyone here got a chance to start anew. If you screwed up here, then you screwed up.

As diverse as the cigar communities are on the internet, we are all in a very closely knit group. Its pretty rare that a member on this board is not known by someone on another board, whether you know it or not. Word travels very fast on the web. If its cigar related, it travels within the cigar community twice as fast. Chances are that Dans reputation is already on other boards as I type this.

Im not sure if I really answered your question Al, but I think you get the idea.

__________________________-

Now about getting folks on the "list"

I can only forewarn those that may or may not know the facts about "the list". I do this with help from a fellow members PM:

There was some discussion recently about having a few specific people be the "judges" about who gets on that list. Many of the people deserve to be on the list, but at the same time, the people here need to understand that once someone is on the list, they are never taken off the list, and the fact that they may complete the deal is never added.
The list originated from another site which has a very different character than here.
While many feel that certain folks should be on that list, be warned. Its like a bullet. Once fired, theres no turning back. Theres no oops. No negotiation will reverse it. It is written in virtual stone forever for all to see. Game over.

[OLS]

It shouldn't take too much thought on the subject to figure out why this would be the case.
I don't think most here would care to have their pms and posts subpoenaed as part of an investigation. People like their privacy, degree of anonymity, and any scrutiny would be detrimental.
Of course, I don't think that SilverFox would want things to go to that level, I just felt it prudent to be clear on the above points.
I can hear Tracey Morgan now, in drag on SNL on The View. "Yes, I AM a lawyer!"
Sorry, where was I? Oh yeah, this is the best advice in the thread, and all of you should re-read it. This is cut from the same cloth as why we do not make a huge stink when a vendor does something we do not like, we move on and hit the next name on the list. You NEVER want to ship cigars back, because then the curtain gets pulled back uncomfortably far for the old Wizard. Everytime you reach out for a little justice, that's when you get a little more light on your business than you want. That's like what the man said in goodfellas...we're like the cops for people who can't GO to the cops. YOU CAN'T go the the cops, so you have to do a little eating of the shi+.

NOW, that doesn't mean the Fox shouldn't get a few well-placed bombs to make up for his loss, I can already see that happening. Derh.
But like I said earlier, it's always easy to suggest some kind of official payback, but that just doesn't work in this situation. That's why it's nearly the perfect scam, if it is a scam. All he has to do is disappear.

[Resipsa]

Can I join?

Private boards are a myth, much talked and speculated about, but in the end, much like kaiser soze, they just wisps of smoke

[Joan]

A person who rips a person on a coke deal knows there is only one threat. Revenge.

:tpd:

I like revenge, a dish best served ice cold in a dark parking lot.

They have parking lots in Canada, don't they?

[rrplasencia]

NOW, that doesn't mean the Fox shouldn't get a few well-placed bombs to make up for his loss, I can already see that happening. .

:tpd: but not for his loss, for his generousity.

[e-man67]

Sounds like the guy took a bunch of $$$...man that sucks. Why would someone spend so much time on these forums making friends just to screw people for money (and even though it was a bunch it wasn't worth it). Karma is a *****..... :mad:

[GoldnGT]

In response to those recommending some criminal legal action be taken in this matter, I'd just like to remind you all that cigar communities are most comfortable flying under the radar, so to speak. It shouldn't take too much thought on the subject to figure out why this would be the case.


Oh I definately understand. :tu

[gorob23]

Sounds like the guy took a bunch of $$$...man that sucks. Why would someone spend so much time on these forums making friends just to screw people for money (and even though it was a bunch it wasn't worth it). Karma is a *****..... :mad:

People are weird dude. I got ripped off for $4k LEGALLY! It was a 2 year ordeal and in the end the guy that got the cash is a miserable lying scumbag of a person. Life goes on. The money will come back, but things like Honor, loyalty and my name are NOT for sale and once gone hard to ever get them back. :2

Rob

[massphatness]

Private boards are a myth, much talked and speculated about, but in the end, much like kaiser soze, they just wisps of smoke

This is a riddle, right? :)

[Resipsa]

This is a riddle, right? :)

Why yes:D

[kaisersozei]

Private boards are a myth, much talked and speculated about, but in the end, much like kaiser soze, they just wisps of smoke

Wait, what?









:D

[Old Sailor]

:tpd:

I like revenge, a dish best served ice cold in a dark parking lot.

They have parking lots in Canada, don't they?

What's a parking lot??:r:r

[pnoon]

What's a parking lot??:r:r

They're called freeways in southern California. ;)

[zmancbr]

Shawn, sorry to hear about you getting the bad end of that deal...

They're called freeways in southern California. ;)

:r That they are... :D

Shawn, sorry to hear about you getting the bad end of that deal...

[SilverFox]

NOW, that doesn't mean the Fox shouldn't get a few well-placed bombs to make up for his loss, I can already see that happening. Derh.


While I appreciate the thought that won't be necessary.

Thanks again to all those with kind words.

[icehog3]

To reiterate, as I am not sure it was grasped completely, it is absolutely NOT ok to post negative feedback here for a transaction on another board...period.

[md4958]

To reiterate, as I am not sure it was grasped completely, it is absolutely NOT ok to post negative feedback here for a transaction on another board...period.

Tom, in regards to transactions that went bad that were actually conducted privately, not on any boards (ie via email) what is the mods position on TF for that?

For example, I was contacted by Dan via email regarding the sale of some cigars. Fortunately I declined, but had I not I would be in the same boat as Shawn and the other gents here (Tikihut patch aside).

Now, at the time, I was ONLY a member of CA, so that is the only place Dan new me from. Since this was our only common "hang out" would it have been appropriate for feedback to be left on CA?

Obviously, the point is now mute for Dan, but for future reference, clarification might be in helpful.

[icehog3]

Tom, in regards to transactions that went bad that were actually conducted privately, not on any boards (ie via email) what is the mods position on TF for that?

For example, I was contacted by Dan via email regarding the sale of some cigars. Fortunately I declined, but had I not I would be in the same boat as Shawn and the other gents here (Tikihut patch aside).

Now, at the time, I was ONLY a member of CA, so that is the only place Dan new me from. Since this was our only common "hang out" would it have been appropriate for feedback to be left on CA?

Obviously, the point is now mute for Dan, but for future reference, clarification might be in helpful.

Hi Moe,

I would say if the transaction was initiated somehow through CA (PMs, e-mail through CA, etc), then it would be permissable. But I certainly don't think transactions initiated on another board, whether via PMs on that board, or other means, should constitute negative feedback here. Clear as mud? :)

In your case I would think TF would be permissable, because your transaction would have occured through CA to a major degree.

[md4958]

Hi Moe,

I would say if the transaction was initiated somehow through CA (PMs, e-mail through CA, etc), then it would be permissable. But I certainly don't think transactions initiated on another board, whether via PMs on that board, or othert means, should constitute negative feedback here. Clear as mud? :)

Gotcha :tu

I was referring to the first instance.

[poker]

If transactions are conducted via closed doors (ie: Private PM deal from here or email) I dont see why you cant leave TF on their profile.

Its just that if the transaction was conducted at another forum, leave the feedback at that forum.



edit: (or in others words.....what Tom said :))

[icehog3]

If transactions are conducted via closed doors (ie: Private PM deal from here or email) I dont see why you cant leave TF on their profile.

Its just that if the transaction was conducted at another forum, leave the feedback at that forum.



edit: (or in others words.....what Tom said :))

Great minds, Kelly? ;) :r

[poker]

You type mo faster den me. :)

[icehog3]

You type mo faster den me. :)

Fastest two index fingers in the East. ;)

[Tikihut27]

(Tikihut patch aside)

More facts:

1) Dan contacted me in Afghanistan about a GB for a patch back in November 08. I was leaving soon, but hoped to get the patches made by a local vendor in Camp Phoenix before I left. I set up the patch and had a prototype made, then ordered the batch.

2) The vendor was backlogged and couldn't get the patches made before I left country. I was unwilling to stick around in Afghanistan to wait, so I turned the process over to my Tiki Hut replacement, TFphoenix33.

3) TFphoenix33 waited for Dan to send a check so he could pick up the patches. Never came. Dan said he had some personal issues and was having trouble getting the check out.

4) I got involved again in February and April as a liason between Dan and TFphoenix33. No money came from Dan, TFphoenix33 was unwilling to front the money (smart man). As far as I know, the patches are still sitting at the embroiderers. Maybe they will still be there by the next time I get sent back to Afghanistan.

5) I am unaware of any refunds for patches, I know even I sent him money for the GB because the final patches were slightly different than the prototype and I wanted one.

6) I am also unaware that any of the troop supporters received anything from the failed GB. Please correct if so.

7) I feel lousy about the whole thing :( .

[poker]

7) I feel lousy about the whole thing :( .

I think we all do

[Rabidsquirrel]

I find it ironic that the guy who gave me a hard time in a PM about calling out a member on a bad transaction screwed so many people.

I think that makes sense.

[Old Sailor]

More facts:

1) Dan contacted me in Afghanistan about a GB for a patch back in November 08. I was leaving soon, but hoped to get the patches made by a local vendor in Camp Phoenix before I left. I set up the patch and had a prototype made, then ordered the batch.

2) The vendor was backlogged and couldn't get the patches made before I left country. I was unwilling to stick around in Afghanistan to wait, so I turned the process over to my Tiki Hut replacement, TFphoenix33.

3) TFphoenix33 waited for Dan to send a check so he could pick up the patches. Never came. Dan said he had some personal issues and was having trouble getting the check out.

4) I got involved again in February and April as a liason between Dan and TFphoenix33. No money came from Dan, TFphoenix33 was unwilling to front the money (smart man). As far as I know, the patches are still sitting at the embroiderers. Maybe they will still be there by the next time I get sent back to Afghanistan.

5) I am unaware of any refunds for patches, I know even I sent him money for the GB because the final patches were slightly different than the prototype and I wanted one.

6) I am also unaware that any of the troop supporters received anything from the failed GB. Please correct if so.

7) I feel lousy about the whole thing :( .

Wasn't your undoing, Dan never sent the cheque, so no patches.

[icehog3]

3) TFphoenix33 waited for Dan to send a check so he could pick up the patches. Never came. Dan said he had some personal issues and was having trouble getting the check out.

7) I feel lousy about the whole thing :( .

No reason for you to feel lousy, you did everything right. :)

For the record, this is NOT the story Dan told a couple of Mods via PM...he laid all the blame on people in Afghanistan. And I obviously believe yours is the true story.

[md4958]

7) I feel lousy about the whole thing :( .

I hear ya, and I would feel the same way, however I don't think any of us hold you responsible for the failed GB. I cant imagine why you wouldn't want to hang around Afghanistan for another 6 months though :r

I really dont care about the $12, what I'm phucken pissed about is that he would screw people over under the guise that it was for troop support. The members of the GB got screwed, the embroiderer got screwed, and the troops got screwed.

[The Poet]

As usual, I have no meaningful comment to add, save to say I am saddened by this whole epic tale - sorry for those who were burned, sorry for the one who thought it was OK to burn others in what was his virtual backyard, and sorry for all the bad karma thus seeded here. The only thing that hurts worse than being taken is when you are taken by someone you considered a friend - you lose not only material possessions, but a piece of your trust and your heart as well.

:(

[GreekGodX]

I was involved in a group buy with Dan and while he took a while to get me my part he did deliver. I'm sorry for those that got taken by him. I absolutely hate when people take advantage of others. It only shows that those who prey on others are scum and do not deserve any happiness in life. It truely makes me sick to hear about this. Andrew (DPD) shared some information in this thread about Dan reselling sale cigars at a higher price. Had I known about that I would have never gotten in on the group buy.

The point has been made numerous times here that we may not know each other face to face, but I treat everyone here as family. Unfortunately 1 person decided they were going to take advantage of our family. While he was successful don't think that he won't get his in the end. I credit Dan with teaching me about cc's as I had limited knowledge when I met him. As of now I thank him for that but I will never be able to respect him or give him any of my time.

Being a good Christian I do believe he has the oppurtunity to right all the wrongs that he has done. I hope he does repay everyone. Only then would I be able to begin to forgive him for he harm be has done to many.

Any bets on whether he shows up at Shack?? Can we say bloodbath?

[icehog3]

Any bets on whether he shows up at Shack?? Can we say bloodbath?

I would be shocked if he did. I don't think it would be a good idea. :2

[St. Lou Stu]

I would be shocked if he did. I don't think it would be a good idea. :2

That's allright man..... I heard Nugent's Bodyguard will be there. :D

[GreekGodX]

I would be shocked if he did. I don't think it would be a good idea. :2

Well he has shown he doesn't make sound decisions...

[Old Sailor]

I would be shocked if he did. I don't think it would be a good idea. :2

He wouldn't have the b***s, but if he did :mad::mad:

[yourchoice]

Always been my understanding Joel that if it didn't happen here, don't leave feedback for it here.

Gotcha, thanks Vic. Good to see you around some. :tu

Yep. That is the general practice.
Thanks Peter!

To reiterate, as I am not sure it was grasped completely, it is absolutely NOT ok to post negative feedback here for a transaction on another board...period.
Clear as a bell! (why is it a bell anyway?)

Its just that if the transaction was conducted at another forum, leave the feedback at that forum.

edit: (or in others words.....what Tom said :))

:banger:banger :D

[md4958]

I was just over at another board that Dan is a member of. Hes got some nasty messages on his profile page already, no trader feedback though.

I understand the MODs policy of no other board feedback and actually have examples to illustrate both sides.

A friend of mine on another board ran a GB for some very expensive, rare cigars that turned out to be fake, the vendor scammed them. Now, he got a bad rep on the other board even though it was not his fault, and that he is making everybody involved whole again. We are talking thousands of $$ here. I would hate for his rep to follow him to a board like CA because as I said, he is making good on the bad situation out of his own pocket. This would be a good argument for not allowing other board feedback.

On the other hand, I have another friend that was involved in a trade on our old home, and after months and months of not receiving his end, asked for his portion back (again THOUSANDS of $$ worth of cigars). The cigars ended up being lost in transit or destroyed or whatever, my friend never got his cigars back. This time however the offending individual didnt make good on the situation, saying that he was financially unable. He then proceeds to take an extravagant vacation and boasts about it. (He is still a member here, and probably reading this.) Now, even though this happened on another board, I would never get involved with a trade with this person, nor would I want another to get burned the way my friend got burned. I think this would be a perfect argument for allowing other board feedback.

My point is, its a catch-22. The MODs have a tough enough time keeping the Massholes in line. :D

[DPD6030]

Any bets on whether he shows up at Shack?? Can we say bloodbath?

Shark bait Oh haha! I'll be there and be armed. Of course it will be put in the car once I begin to :al Oh and I doubt he'll be there as he said he was going to be at Old Sailor's herf and RHNewfie's herf and never showed up. I think he knows he'll run into some major problems :D

Oh and I did post earlier about Dan but I felt that the members should make up their own decisions about him and not have me influence them in any way. I did frequent chat regularly at some asked about Dan and when they asked I did tell them the dealings I've had with them and let them make up their own minds.

[Old Sailor]

Shark bait Oh haha! I'll be there and be armed. Of course it will be put in the car once I begin to :al Oh and I doubt he'll be there as he said he was going to be at Old Sailor's herf and RHNewfie's herf and never showed up. I think he knows he'll run into some major problems :D

Oh and I did post earlier about Dan but I felt that the members should make up their own decisions about him and not have me influence them in any way. I did frequent chat regularly at some asked about Dan and when they asked I did tell them the dealings I've had with them and let them make up their own minds.

hummm, no sharks in Erie......tar & feather.....:)

[Clampdown]

hummm, no sharks in Erie......tar & feather.....:)

Lots of snakes though

[Thrak]

This is where I will end up replying, although I wanted to reply to the person that stated that there was a real case, crossing state lines, etc. I laughed out loud, I am sorry to say. Not to deride the person who said this, but in a general way, I was thinking, 'yup, it's easy to give advice to the "other person" who then has to act on his ironclad case involving illegal goods'. Haha, priceless.

Like I have the time to read thru everything to determine that this was a deal involving "unspeakables" ... :rolleyes:

I've been the moderator and owner of boards with over 20,000 people (not cigar related) and have had to deal with this crap before. More often than not the buyer gets some recourse, especially if its across state lines. Atty Generals of States dont look kindly on interstate fraud.

However, since this was across country lines, I dont have a clue how one would proceed with this as I have no experience with it.

I just hate hearing about that kind of money loss, that is, for me anyway, a significant amount of money and I would be steaming pissed.

[icehog3]

That's allright man..... I heard Nugent's Bodyguard will be there. :D

:r :r

[icehog3]

Well he has shown he doesn't make sound decisions...

Word. :tu

[icehog3]

My point is, its a catch-22. The MODs have a tough enough time keeping the Massholes in line. :D

Nah, we love youse guys! :D

P.S.....sorry for the back to back to back posts...my multi-quote doesn't work on this work computer. :(

[icehog3]

Shark bait Oh haha! I'll be there and be armed. Of course it will be put in the car once I begin to :al

Oh, absolutely....in fact, the gun needs to be in the car if anyone at the herf has been drinking. NO guns at the herf (outside the car), and I will tell you the story as to why in 2 weeks, Andrew. ;)

[devilfish]

Crossboard bad trader feedback is a dicey thing and has far more negatives than positives. But, crossboard notification can be beneficial to the board leadership teams.

FTR Dan has been banned at ICC.

[pnoon]

Oh, absolutely....in fact, the gun needs to be in the car if anyone at the herf has been drinking. NO guns at the herf (outside the car), and I will tell you the story as to why in 2 weeks, Andrew. ;)

:tpd: :tpd: :tpd:

[GreekGodX]

Oh and I did post earlier about Dan but I felt that the members should make up their own decisions about him and not have me influence them in any way. I did frequent chat regularly at some asked about Dan and when they asked I did tell them the dealings I've had with them and let them make up their own minds.

I wish I would have known the stuff before I ordered as I wouldn't have supported the group buy. Your bro told me after the fact some of the stuff that happened. I didn't get harmed by any of this but I wouldn't have supported the group buy if I'd known.

[icehog3]

Crossboard bad trader feedback is a dicey thing and has far more negatives than positives. But, crossboard notification can be beneficial to the board leadership teams.



Point taken. :)

[DPD6030]

Oh, absolutely....in fact, the gun needs to be in the car if anyone at the herf has been drinking. NO guns at the herf (outside the car), and I will tell you the story as to why in 2 weeks, Andrew. ;)

Can't wait to hear the story Tom. I never have a gun on me while partaking in the adult beverages. I hope it's ok to bring it for the ride over and the ride back. Can I bring my water pistol? :r

[MNSmoker]

I really dont care about the $12, what I'm phucken pissed about is that he would screw people over under the guise that it was for troop support. The members of the GB got screwed, the embroiderer got screwed, and the troops got screwed.

Absolutely. I'm not pissed off that I'm out $20 and I'll never receive my Tikihut Patch, what I'm pissed off about is Dan cheated the troops out of money. I know many of us donated a few extra dollars in the GB that Dan was to give the troops. Karma is a ***** and there is no doubt that his ways will come around to bite him.

Fox, I'm sorry you were screwed out of $650. It sucks that this would happen to anyone on this board, but it's really terrible that it happened to one of the nicest and most generous members here.

[HK3-]

Oh, absolutely....in fact, the gun needs to be in the car if anyone at the herf has been drinking. NO guns at the herf (outside the car), and I will tell you the story as to why in 2 weeks, Andrew. ;)

Seriously no guns? :gn I can only imagine how bad things could turn out if everyone was packin some heat and drinking a bottle of Stoli.

Note to self: Be nice for the next two weeks. :r

[Mr.Maduro]

Shark bait Oh haha! I'll be there and be armed. Of course it will be put in the car once I begin to :al Oh and I doubt he'll be there as he said he was going to be at Old Sailor's herf and RHNewfie's herf and never showed up. I think he knows he'll run into some major problems :D

Oh and I did post earlier about Dan but I felt that the members should make up their own decisions about him and not have me influence them in any way. I did frequent chat regularly at some asked about Dan and when they asked I did tell them the dealings I've had with them and let them make up their own minds.

If you are law enforcement or not, guns at a herf? Or even to make mention of one comes across as menacing and a little inappropriate to me.:2

[cort]

Wow!! I too got the email and I am very glad I was broke at the time. I am very sorry to everyone who got scammed by this guy. Not cool at all.


Back in the CS days we used to cyberherf on sundays and one time Dan showed up and I just knew he was a weinie. Ask Vin he saw me get all fired up. I know this adds nothin so I'm sorry but, I'm just sayin.

Once again my apologies to the victims here. I love you BOTL's like family and this sh!t pisses me off!!

[Bruzee]

I am also angered and saddened by this thread. I cannot add anything helpful that has not already been said. But if I lived within 2 hours of this guy, I would drive to his house. Just to talk, of course! :tu

[Genetic Defect]

Shawn,
I feel your pain. He is not to be named kept sending me invites to his group buys as well. I've met him and he is an a$$. I'm not here to bash him but ever since he tried selling me some cigars that I knew he got on sale for a price that was the full asking price when not on sale I cut my ties to him. I even took him off my buddy list. Since I am an LEO this whole cluster is definitely a fraud. I don't want to see him locked up but he should make right his wrongs and be done with it. :2

Not to mention him posting D/C #s to passes, MAW and others only not having them sent for a month! If you can't get stuff out in a week max then don't get involved.:fl

he invited me too and this is the reason I didn't join too.

[Genetic Defect]

Oh, absolutely....in fact, the gun needs to be in the car if anyone at the herf has been drinking. NO guns at the herf (outside the car), and I will tell you the story as to why in 2 weeks, Andrew. ;)

another reason I want to come to Shack but I could only make it for Saturday

[Skywalker]

Wow!! I too got the email and I am very glad I was broke at the time. I am very sorry to everyone who got scammed by this guy. Not cool at all.


Back in the CS days we used to cyberherf on sundays and one time Dan showed up and I just knew he was a weinie. Ask Vin he saw me get all fired up. I know this adds nothin so I'm sorry but, I'm just sayin.

Once again my apologies to the victims here. I love you BOTL's like family and this sh!t pisses me off!!

Cyber-Herfs didn't last long after that!!!

[icehog3]

Can't wait to hear the story Tom. I never have a gun on me while partaking in the adult beverages. I hope it's ok to bring it for the ride over and the ride back. Can I bring my water pistol? :r

Guns in the vehicle...shouldn't be a problem, I choose to travel with mine when driving.

I have heard some make the argument that why shouldn't people who are legally allowed to carry firearms (law enforcement, CC holders) be allowed to bring their guns. Forget the argument that guns in place where 120 people will be drinking isn't necessarily a good idea, and go with this one: The Shack is private property, where the host's wife and children will be. I think it is totally within his rights to ask that no one be carrying guns. :2

This isn't diercted at Andrew, who understands the whole deal, but to others who have made the argument about carrying to herfs.

[leasingthisspace]

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/images/cigar-gun-2.gif
Maybe it looks like this?

[DPD6030]

Guns in the vehicle...shouldn't be a problem, I choose to travel with mine when driving.

I have heard some make the argument that why shouldn't people who are legally allowed to carry firearms (law enforcement, CC holders) be allowed to bring their guns. Forget the argument that guns in place where 120 people will be drinking isn't necessarily a good idea, and go with this one: The Shack is private property, where the host's wife and children will be. I think it is totally within his rights to ask that no one be carrying guns. :2

This isn't diercted at Andrew, who understands the whole deal, but to others who have made the argument about carrying to herfs.

I agree 100% Tom. I have also sent a PM to Dave and if he doesn't want guns at all at his herf then I will leave it at home, I have no problem with that and I respect his decision.

Sorry to offend you Patrick, not everyone is a responsible gun owner. I guess you won't be attending any shoot & herfs then. :(

You'd be surprised at how many vehicles on the roadway actually have a gun in them by law abiding citizens who have the right to carry and are responsible gun owners. And no I'm not started a debate here and don't want a debate. :2

[Old Sailor]

Good thing Nick aka Dragonman isn't coming......guns freak him out.:D

[Genetic Defect]

If I call a spade a spade, could I also call a hoe a hoe?

[DPD6030]

Good thing Nick aka Dragonman isn't coming......guns freak him out.:D

That they do and so do Gurkhas :r

[icehog3]

If I call a spade a spade, could I also call a hoe a hoe?

Who are you, Willie D? ;) :r

[Genetic Defect]

Who are you, Willie D? ;) :r

:r:r holy reference out of left field Admiral

[icehog3]

:r:r holy reference out of left field Admiral

Not many besides us would get it. ;)

[Genetic Defect]

Not many besides us would get it. ;)

kinda like my sig:ss

[Waynegro1]

Who are you, Willie D? ;) :r

:r I laughed out loud, thanks, Tom. I need that. :tu
"You don't treat a ho like a queen who behaves like a dog"
Those were the days :D

[icehog3]

:r I laughed out loud, thanks, Tom. I need that. :tu
"You don't treat a ho like a queen who behaves like a dog"
Those were the days :D

;) :tu

[Tikihut27]

I'll never receive my Tikihut Patch

Never say never. I made a mistake by not pushing this GB harder to completion. It was very difficult to handle, given the distance and SSG Robinson's job, but when I got home I pretty much linked up Dan and SSG Robinson and went about my business.

I feel like I dropped the ball. We don't know Dan's intentions on this GB and can't state 100% it was a con. I certainly understood the difficulties.

There are 21 people other than Dan and myself on the GB, and dammit, they are all good people and some of the best troop supporters and BOTLs out there. They all deserve to be recognized for wanting to help the troops and for everything they've done in addition to that GB, if it went through or not.

On MY NAME and rep as an Army Officer and a humbled receiver of the generosity of this forum's Troop Support program and the preceding one, I'll see that recognition happen. One way or another.

[icehog3]

Never say never. I made a mistake by not pushing this GB harder to completion. It was very difficult to handle, given the distance and SSG Robinson's job, but when I got home I pretty much linked up Dan and SSG Robinson and went about my business.

I feel like I dropped the ball. We don't know Dan's intentions on this GB and can't state 100% it was a con. I certainly understood the difficulties.

There are 21 people other than Dan and myself on the GB, and dammit, they are all good people and some of the best troop supporters and BOTLs out there. They all deserve to be recognized for wanting to help the troops and for everything they've done in addition to that GB, if it went through or not.

On MY NAME and rep as an Army Officer and a humbled receiver of the generosity of this forum's Troop Support program and the preceding one, I'll see that recognition happen. One way or another.

You are a good man for picking up the ball on this....a ball that you did not drop. Kudos to you, Sir :salute:

[DPD6030]

You are a good man for picking up the ball on this....a ball that you did not drop. Kudos to you, Sir :salute:

:tpd:

[alley00p]

You are a good man for picking up the ball on this....a ball that you did not drop. Kudos to you, Sir :salute:

:tpd: +1

I had a deal with Dan where it took months to get my "brown bag" from him, and after I had posted positive feedback, I found out that what he sold me gave him about a 300% profit! At that point, I decided no more deals with him.

What bothers me the most about Shawn and the others being ripped off on this deal, is that Dan and his "significant other" have just bought a new house. At the last monthly herf he attended here, he wanted everyone to herf at his new house instead of the place where we meet every month. At this point, I expect that Shawn's money went towards a nice new couch or something else for his new place.

The one thing I know for a fact is that I won't be herfing with him again - at his house or anywhere else! EVER!

I'm sorry that you and the others got ripped off, Shawn. I'm out on the TikiHut patch money, but I wrote that off a few months ago.


I don't feel much like dancin' - right now! :mad:

[Don Fernando]

I send Dan a message on facebook, asking what's up, and this is his reply

Mostly it's the johnny o group buy, it's in part my fault of not mailing everything out as soon as I received it, not receiving it when I was told I would, and not sending out updates every couple days to everyone involved. And with this one person thought they were paying for 125 cigars when they were paying for 50, so they were quite peeved over that as well, and I thought I had their sticks but didn't. I still don't have them all but will send what I have.

Then there's the patch group buy, only thing I could do is refund people's money, even though the patches have been made the SSG Robinson is out the money, and I've sent him two checks, which one he says he has, though has not cashed. He said he would mail the patches a little over a week or two ago, though I've not seen anything yet. Communications with him have been very difficult as he's in Afganistan, though I don't know why it's so hard when it wasn't with the last guy.

I have some trades that have taken a while as well, two specifically that are being counted against me even though I fulfilled my part, one was to a guy in canada who never received the sticks, so I sent a replacement with another person's box to him, he's never replied to if he's received it or not, another is to someone I told I'd send free stuff to and he never received them because I never sent yet.

Mostly I've been having problems sending stuff out due to my own depression issues. I'm not saying it's a valid reason, just what my therapist and me have come to. These group buys along with the rest of the stuff in my life is causing me to sort of break down. Then with that I can't get on CA at work since they blocked it with both proxies and I don't have internet at home, and then in my free time I'm trying to update a house so I can move in it so that the other house I can't afford isn't taken from me before I can, I spend the rest of my time with my daughter.

So I guess with all this I was banned, I wasn't sent any notice or anything just found out from a few friends. I have no idea if it's a perm ban or temp. I still plan to send everything out I owe, and when those patches do finally come in, I'll need help finding addresses for everyone who's owed them.

I'm sorry for being a crappy friend and not speaking up about any of my issues, and know I have no valid reason for not taking care of stuff in a timely manner. I know it's easy to do and I should just do it, just my body won't. Hopefully I can get something to help even me out.

Please wish everyone the best and I hope you don't hate me for how I'm acting now.

Your friend,

Dan

Don't shoot me, I am just the messenger.

[MajorCaptSilly]

I send Dan a message on facebook, asking what's up, and this is his reply



Don't shoot me, I am just the messenger.

He doesn't mention my transaction with him where I paid for 3-5 packs of cigars and he lied to me 3 times about shipping. He did give me the "lost in the mail" story that seems to be his mantra. I've never had a package lost in the mail and I've sent quite a few. I hope he ended up with enough stolen money to buy some furniture for his new house.

MCS

[kaisersozei]

I send Dan a message on facebook, asking what's up, and this is his reply

Don't shoot me, I am just the messenger.

:hm Interesting.

Thanks for sharing, Ferd....

[Mr.Maduro]

I agree 100% Tom. I have also sent a PM to Dave and if he doesn't want guns at all at his herf then I will leave it at home, I have no problem with that and I respect his decision.

Sorry to offend you Patrick, not everyone is a responsible gun owner. I guess you won't be attending any shoot & herfs then. :(

You'd be surprised at how many vehicles on the roadway actually have a gun in them by law abiding citizens who have the right to carry and are responsible gun owners. And no I'm not started a debate here and don't want a debate. :2

You won't get any debate from me...I'm all for the right to bear arms... it was just the context in which you announced that you would be armed was a little threatening in general. I wasn't afraid myself....I'm from Brooklyn! :D

[pnoon]

I send Dan a message on facebook, asking what's up, and this is his reply



Don't shoot me, I am just the messenger.

No shots fired at you, Ferd. But Dan also claims not to have been able to access the Internet. How does he explain his recent activity on Facebook? I realize he's going thru some difficult times but his stories just don't add up.

[Emjaysmash]

He doesn't mention my transaction with him where I paid for 3-5 packs of cigars and he lied to me 3 times about shipping. He did give me the "lost in the mail" story that seems to be his mantra. I've never had a package lost in the mail and I've sent quite a few. I hope he ended up with enough stolen money to buy some furniture for his new house.

MCS

:tpd:

HE told me the packages getting were lost in the mail FOUR times... I wish I had known I was not the only one or I would have been less sympathetic and less lenient.

[fissure]

No shots fired at you, Ferd. But Dan also claims not to have been able to access the Internet. How does he explain his recent activity on Facebook? I realize he's going thru some difficult times but his stories just don't add up.

I got a response to an email I sent him also, yesterday. He has access to the internet at work, just not this site. And no access at home. Told him that was a poor excuse. If you have business to take care of, go to starbucks, or a library. He called me on my way home from work and said he was packing up boxes at the moment, and had me pm Dabidog to get his address. So we shall see if stuff actually starts arriving. He told me 2/3 of the people in the GB had gotten their stuff already. If they have gotten it, post up.

[GreekGodX]

:tpd:

HE told me the packages getting were lost in the mail FOUR times... I wish I had known I was not the only one or I would have been less sympathetic and less lenient.

He doesn't mention my transaction with him where I paid for 3-5 packs of cigars and he lied to me 3 times about shipping. He did give me the "lost in the mail" story that seems to be his mantra. I've never had a package lost in the mail and I've sent quite a few. I hope he ended up with enough stolen money to buy some furniture for his new house.

MCS

If anyone was giving Dan a chance after these 2 post then they are nieve. I don't think we can believe a word Dan says. Actions speak louder then words. If packages start popping up then that is a different story. Until then anything he says is just a facade.

[Buena Fortuna]

I got a response to an email I sent him also, yesterday. He has access to the internet at work, just not this site. And no access at home. Told him that was a poor excuse. If you have business to take care of, go to starbucks, or a library. He called me on my way home from work and said he was packing up boxes at the moment, and had me pm Dabidog to get his address. So we shall see if stuff actually starts arriving. He told me 2/3 of the people in the GB had gotten their stuff already. If they have gotten it, post up.

Every transaction I have had with Dan, and I have had many including the GB in question, has been completed with no issues whatsoever.

[elderboy02]

I got a response to an email I sent him also, yesterday. He has access to the internet at work, just not this site. And no access at home. Told him that was a poor excuse. If you have business to take care of, go to starbucks, or a library. He called me on my way home from work and said he was packing up boxes at the moment, and had me pm Dabidog to get his address. So we shall see if stuff actually starts arriving. He told me 2/3 of the people in the GB had gotten their stuff already. If they have gotten it, post up.

Thanks for your hard work Steve.

The no access to the site excuse is absolutely terrible. I got a PM from him on 7/14 where he asked for my address.

I am so tired of his excuses.

[poker]

I call Shenanigans

That sad story is all full of holes.

[kydsid]

No shots fired at you, Ferd. But Dan also claims not to have been able to access the Internet. How does he explain his recent activity on Facebook? I realize he's going thru some difficult times but his stories just don't add up.

I got a response to an email I sent him also, yesterday. He has access to the internet at work, just not this site. And no access at home.

I call Shenanigans

That sad story is all full of holes.



I agree I am a newb here and don't have anything invested in this but that message pegged my BS meter. To sit there and say that CA is blocked but you can get to Facebook? Lol ya right. Who would bother blocking CA but not one of the most popular websites in the world? Then to go on and say that they blocked the proxies, seriously does he even know what he is saying when he writes that? Don't believe it for a minute folks.

A picture speaks a 1000 words for how that message from Dan makes me feel. (http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/81/facepalmcj7.jpg)

To all those affected I feel for your loses both monetarily and in friendships.

[ahc4353]

I hope you get to see his math skills! :tu

[gettysburgfreak]

I have no idea who this Dan fellow is and I don't care to but all I can say is I hope for everyone's sake that this thing gets taken care of so we as a board can move forward. I truly feel bad for those involved, hopefully this asshole makes good.

[fissure]

Just got an email from the accused.

All packages that had not been sent out have been sent as of last night/this morning. Only ones he hasn't shipped out is 2 to canada and one to the UK. Take it for what its worth, just the messenger. Hopefully this is true and they will all arrive shortly:tu

[SilverFox]

Just got an email from the accused.

All packages that had not been sent out have been sent as of last night/this morning. Only ones he hasn't shipped out is 2 to canada and one to the UK. Take it for what its worth, just the messenger. Hopefully this is true and they will all arrive shortly:tu

Seems I have heard this story before. No offense to fissure at all who has gone above and beyond in trying to sort this out for the many involved. My thanks for that

With what's left to send out for the cigar group buy I will need to pm elderboy for his address still.

DANIEL BALL JR
Delivery Confirmation™ Label Number: 0103 8555 7498 1777 2791
ADAM JAFFE
Delivery Confirmation™ Label Number: 0103 8555 7496 8149 8728
JAYMZ
Delivery Confirmation™ Label Number: 0103 8555 7498 3874 4319
FRANCIS CARDULLO
Delivery Confirmation™ Label Number: 0103 8555 7498 2825 8550
CLIFFORD BAGWELL
Delivery Confirmation™ Label Number: 0103 8555 7497 9680 1277
MICHAEL S. POWERS
Delivery Confirmation™ Label Number: 0103 8555 7498 0728 7038
SHAWN THOMPSON
Priority Mail International® Label Number: CJ194143480US


I will hand deliver the last two to Buena Fortuna who received his other cigars as these last two arrived much later.

I need to make a print label for dentonparrots, jbailey, and rhnewfie. I have one for lostark at home still, and confirm ScottW as I thought I had mailed his already but may not have.

Here for the thread (http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=463493)

If cigars do show up I will be surprised. But even if they do, hardcz has already informed me it will not be as many as I ordered or what I ordered.

For purposes of fairness I had quite a few small transactions with hardcz prior to this and all where without incident. This does not make me feel better, it actually makes me feel worse as I feel I have been set up. I have no proof of that hence why it was not said in the original post but that is what my gut tells me.

[SilverFox]

As for the comments in Don Fernando's post regarding someone expecting 125 but only paid and is getting 50

Shawn,

I spoke to ****, he said he sizes you wanted could take a while to find molds to make, as he does not have them. He offered up these instead as he actually has them right now.

Please let me know and I'll get all this started.

(75) baby Salomones (6 3/8 x 52)- $225 this cigar has the same shape as a Salomone (7.25 X 57), but just a bit shorter

(50) Sublime Extra pigtail/shagfoot (6 1/2 X 54)-$250 actually about an inch longer if you include the shagfoot

When I said I only posted the facts in my initial post, I in fact only posted the facts that I could support.

There where many chat conversations that I do not still have. I was only informed less than 2 weeks ago that I would only be recieving 50 sticks and that I would not be getting the baby Salamoes or the Sublime Extra's (I was not even informed what I would be getting)

[Sancho]

As for the comments in Don Fernando's post regarding someone expecting 125 but only paid and is getting 50



You do the math, perhaps I am stupid

So you were under the impression you were getting ____ _ for $3 a stick and $5 a stick respectively? :confused:

[Negncic]

I have been waiting on Dan's end of a trade from February. He never said he sent them, just a series of excuses. I forgot, life problems, etc. Promises to send out the sticks that were never fulfilled. :confused:

[fissure]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Shawn. I don't want to be in the middle or any part of this.....But I want to see all you guys get your cigars.

Shawn, the story I got from Dan was that what he sent you in the pm you posted was what he got from the supplier. The 75 and the 50 was supposed to be what the supplier had in stock at the moment (3 bundles and 2 bundles). The price was per bundle, which makes a lot more sense for that size. At the prices you thought, I would have jumped on 100 of them:D Sounds like that's where the mis communication might have been??

[SilverFox]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Shawn. I don't want to be in the middle or any part of this.....But I want to see all you guys get your cigars.

Shawn, the story I got from Dan was that what he sent you in the pm you posted was what he got from the supplier. The 75 and the 50 was supposed to be what the supplier had in stock at the moment (3 bundles and 2 bundles). The price was per bundle, which makes a lot more sense for that size. At the prices you thought, I would have jumped on 100 of them:D Sounds like that's where the mis communication might have been??

Yup I would agree other than I confirmed the amount of sticks and pricing so that may have been the information he was working with but it was not the information I was working with.



An excerpt from Dan's email to me of June 9th.

Shawn,

I thought I had all of your cigars in the first shipment, which was two bundles of baby salamones, *simarones* as **** put it. I am missing the petit salamones for you still.

I have not shipped because I don't have all your cigars. I can ship two seperate if you want half of them now.


Now if he had 2 bundles and it was only half that would imply at least 100 cigars not 50.

Perhaps I was confused. Frankly I doubt it, but I am not perfect. I know I confirmed it, yet I cannot find the PM or the email (other than the above) so it is only my word.

[SilverFox]

So you were under the impression you were getting ____ _ for $3 a stick and $5 a stick respectively? :confused:

Is this a question??

[ahc4353]

....... I know I confirmed it, yet I cannot find the PM or the email (other than the above) so it is only my word.

Nuff said.

[fissure]

Yup I would agree other than I confirmed the amount of sticks and pricing so that may have been the information he was working with but it was not the information I was working with.



An excerpt from Dan's email to me of June 9th.

Shawn,

I thought I had all of your cigars in the first shipment, which was two bundles of baby salamones, *simarones* as **** put it. I am missing the petit salamones for you still.

I have not shipped because I don't have all your cigars. I can ship two seperate if you want half of them now.


Now if he had 2 bundles and it was only half that would imply at least 100 cigars not 50.

Perhaps I was confused. Frankly I doubt it, but I am not perfect. I know I confirmed it, yet I cannot find the PM or the email (other than the above) so it is only my word.

Yup, enough said. That excerpt from his emails says he thought that's what you were getting too. Sounds like he was the one confused.

[loki]

for what it's worth, and I don't think it's much at this point, I talked to dan and he seemed hurt that we thought that he would just take the money and not order or order and keep the sticks. he also said that he would get the stuff out. yes I know we've heard this before and if i can figure out how to transfer the gchat logs from my Blackberry to my mac i'll post them for all to read. I don't care about dan in this I want everyone to get what they paid for

[poker]

I think at this point actions are going to speak louder than words. The words dont mean much anymore to many. Instead of saying he's going to do it, he needs to just do it already. Its not like it requires a masters degree in problem solving or anything.

[pnoon]

for what it's worth, and I don't think it's much at this point, I talked to dan and he seemed hurt that we thought that he would just take the money and not order or order and keep the sticks. he also said that he would get the stuff out. yes I know we've heard this before and if i can figure out how to transfer the gchat logs from my Blackberry to my mac i'll post them for all to read. I don't care about dan in this I want everyone to get what they paid for

Are you kidding me? Dan is not the victim here. I sincerely hope he gets his personal issues worked out but this is proof that he STILL does not get it. He clearly does not understand what he has done, the impact it has had on many many people, and how it is all perceived by the entire cigar community. His word at this point in the game is virtually worthless.

No intent here on shooting the messenger, but that one phrase really struck a nerve.

[Scottw]

Are you kidding me? Dan is not the victim here. I sincerely hope he gets his personal issues worked out but this is proof that he STILL does not get it. He clearly does not understand what he has done, the impact it has had on many many people, and how it is all perceived by the entire cigar community. His word at this point in the game is virtually worthless.

No intent here on shooting the messenger, but that one phrase really struck a nerve.

Got to agree here, although I wasn't stiffed for money, I too bought sticks that were delivered 4 months later and wrapped in one piece of newspaper that when unwrapped revealed torn wrappers on all the sticks. Dan is not a victim, Dan has a problem. Sorry, had to comment, I'm done.

[Old Sailor]

Mostly I've been having problems sending stuff out due to my own depression issues. I'm not saying it's a valid reason, just what my therapist and me have come to. These group buys along with the rest of the stuff in my life is causing me to sort of break down. to quote Dan



Depression....I have suffered with it for 10 years, never once has it come in the way of sending stuff out or communicating with people who I owe....do what I did, get on some meds.:2

[SilverFox]

Mostly I've been having problems sending stuff out due to my own depression issues. I'm not saying it's a valid reason, just what my therapist and me have come to. These group buys along with the rest of the stuff in my life is causing me to sort of break down. to quote Dan



Depression....I have suffered with it for 10 years, never once has it come in the way of sending stuff out or communicating with people who I owe....do what I did, get on some meds.:2

All my adult life here Dave, and we know I can send out a package :D

[icehog3]

I am so upset about Dan's comments, I have typed out several posts and deleted each of them, thinking better of it.

Let's just suffice to say I call bullsh*t.

[G G]

You seem like the kind of guy that that kind of restraint is killing you Tom.:tu

I don't have a dog in the fight so to speak, but I like a lot of the other folks on here, hate to see this kind of thing happen cause it hurts us all.

[The Poet]

I don't have a dog in the fight so to speak, but I like a lot of the other folks on here, hate to see this kind of thing happen cause it hurts us all.

:tpd:

[bobarian]

I am so upset about Dan's comments, I have typed out several posts and deleted each of them, thinking better of it.

Let's just suffice to say I call bullsh*t.

:tpd: So many things wrong with his email its hard to know which to comment on first.

The transactions on CA are not Dan's first time doing this sort of thing. Back on CS/Puff there was at least one other situation that required intervention.:c

[bigloo]

Paying my bills and especially my taxes depresses the sh!t out of me... I still do it. That is a very sad excuse.

Icehog, restraint is what lands people in the comfy chair, let it out tough guy!

[Martin]

to quote Dan
"Mostly I've been having problems sending stuff out due to my own depression issues. I'm not saying it's a valid reason, just what my therapist and me have come to. These group buys along with the rest of the stuff in my life is causing me to sort of break down."

Take the $ for yur next session or 2 with the therapist, buy cigars owed, cover yur nutt, nuff said.

You'll still be a lair n a thief but on your way to redemption.
:2

[Old Sailor]

Boy.....you really know how to kill a thread Martin!:r:r

[icehog3]

Icehog, restraint is what lands people in the comfy chair, let it out tough guy!

Gotta think of myself too, I almost had an anuerysm! :r

[Old Sailor]

Gotta think of myself too, I almost had an anuerysm! :r

I hate when that happens me!:r

[St. Lou Stu]

to quote Dan
"Mostly I've been having problems sending stuff out due to my own depression issues. I'm not saying it's a valid reason, just what my therapist and me have come to. These group buys along with the rest of the stuff in my life is causing me to sort of break down."


If the quote is true, it is sad to see how things played out.

This place is full of support. :2

[Tenor CS]

This place is full of support. :2

Disclaimer: I have no dog in this fight, as someone else said. I did get some emails from Dan re: a trading email list that he was trying to set up, but I ignored them because I wasn't interested.

Re: the part that I quoted from St. Lou Stu:

I agree that this place is one of the most supportive places I've seen online. In fact, I was going to post something to the effect of "does anyone live near Dan that could stop by and check on him, maybe do him the favor of dropping stuff off at the post office?" (Assuming the DC numbers are legit and the stuff really is packed up and ready to go) That was when I was still in the "I want to give Dan the benefit of the doubt" mode and before I'd read too many bad stories about him.

I have had my own physical and pain-related issues for the last year or so, and at times the pain has been debilitating, to the point where I couldn't leave my bed, let alone the apartment. I had all these grand plans for the summer, as far as cleaning up the apartment and such ... what did I do? Not a damn thing. I mostly stayed in bed writhing in pain that has thankfully been alleviated by my latest surgery. So I definitely have sympathy for someone who's having a medical issue, even if it is mental rather than physical. (Not to discount the fact that depression does have physical effects)

Maybe he's a scammer, maybe he's just irresponsible, maybe he's a liar. Probably a little combination of all 3. I don't think any of us will ever know the 100% truth.

All I know is that I am grateful for the support, advice, and kindness that I have received from many members on here regarding my job loss and health issues. For more on that, see my "Update on Tenor CS's health" thread.

Good night, Cigar Asylum.

[Genetic Defect]

I have a problem solver its name is ....

[icehog3]

I have a problem solver its name is ....

It's like a deadly game of freeze-tag..... ;)

[dentonparrots]

I've also not recieved stogies I''ve paid for from Dan that frankly I could have used to buy from elsewhere. I've had PM's from him saying "they are on their way" etc then others saying they're not which has been confusing and I've guessed that he was copy and pasting messages to multiple people as they all seemed kinda impersonal for him. I suppose if he'd said "Sorry, I can't get them to you at all and your money's gone too" I'd have at least known where I stood.

I've not really commented to others about this at all as I didn't want to come across as an arse but that said I didn't know others had been ripped off too, certainly not to the degree that some have.
In Dans defence I should say that whenever he's messaged me I've stressed to him that there was no hurry as I got the impression he was under the weather and having a tough time. I've done trades with Dan in the past and can honestly say I've always trusted him, and received what he said he would send, and I still hope he'll make good at some point in the future...whenever that may be.

Lots of folks have made fair comments regarding being ripped off and his lame excuses, and although it's easy for me to say "no hurries" to him I've only spent $60, not $600+ and if I had spent that much and not recieved what I'd paid for I would no doubt have got the police involved to some degree and certainly wouldn't have been as patient as what I have been.

One thing that did nark me was that I mentioned in chat about buying from a vendor on here (I won't name, what's the point!) and he slated the guy instantly saying about previous purchases that had gone bad, been delayed etc and even went as far as to send me links to threads slagging the vendor off...kinda seems like the pot calling the kettle black! As it happened I bought them from the same vendor anyway and was amazed at how fast they got here to the UK from the states.

I just get the gut feeling things have gotten on top of him and he's struggled to deal with things and not put his hands up to the problems as quickly as he could have done. I wish him well and a speedy recovery and if he can he should make good on the deals when he can regardless of being banned, even if it is just to make himself feel a bit better about the whole thing.

Can I ask if anyone has heard from him recently and has anyone who's been waiting for ages to get their cigars actually recived ANY yet?

I do feel for the guy if he's having issues as I considered him a friend, and still do..but again I'm not down $600+ so it's easier for me to say that.

[Genetic Defect]

It's like a deadly game of freeze-tag..... ;)

:r :D

[Skywalker]

Owned!!!
http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/image.php?u=225&dateline=1248794211
I like that "thumbs down" picture!!!






* Mods, If I'm out of order please remove my post!

[Don Fernando]

I just heard from another inmate that Logan aka SixPackSunday stiffed a few guys on the board too :(

[Bruzee]

I just heard from another inmate that Logan aka SixPackSunday stiffed a few guys on the board too :(

Where do these people come from, and why are they here?!?!?!?!?!?! :mad:

[Resipsa]

I just heard from another inmate that Logan aka SixPackSunday stiffed a few guys on the board too :(

No offense, but if somebody has a problem with another member they should take it up with that member or the mods. I don't think throwing unsubstantiated rumors out there is the way the board wants to operate. I wouldn't like it I'd it were done to me and I was innocent and I'm sure you wouldn't either

[poker]

What goes around, comes around. Karma can be a bad MF when its their turn in the barrel.

[Don Fernando]

No offense, but if somebody has a problem with another member they should take it up with that member or the mods. I don't think throwing unsubstantiated rumors out there is the way the board wants to operate. I wouldn't like it I'd it were done to me and I was innocent and I'm sure you wouldn't either

just check SPS's profile (trader feedback & visitor messages), like I did before I posted.

[markem]

just check SPS's profile (trader feedback & visitor messages), like I did before I posted.

Wow. And because it was already in public on the trader feedback you felt that you just had to drag it into here? This thread has a nasty gang mentality that isn't reflecting well on this board.

[Scottw]

Wow. And because it was already in public on the trader feedback you felt that you just had to drag it into here? This thread has a nasty gang mentality that isn't reflecting well on this board.


Maybe that mentality will help prevent this **** from happening again.

[markem]

Maybe that mentality will help prevent this **** from happening again.

So will closing all trade / maw / pif threads and banning the use of the board for such purposes. I suppose you are in favor of that as well.

Lynch mobs seldom see themselves as unsavory while they are performing the lynching.

[rack04]

Maybe that mentality will help prevent this **** from happening again.

Gang mentality can also lead to more problems. A house fire comes to mind. This person prayed on the mentality of lending a helping hand. Very few followed up with the story and several people got taken.

[Scottw]

So will closing all trade / maw / pif threads and banning the use of the board for such purposes. I suppose you are in favor of that as well.

Lynch mobs seldom seem themselves as unsavory while they are performing the lynching.

Not at all, but if someone is taking people's money, that asshole should be exposed and not dealt with any longer. Perhaps people knowing that there will be penalties will persuade them to keep everything on the up and up. My comment was with respect to the label you gave "gang mentality". It's a shame that this even has to occur here but the fact is it is occurring and there is nothing wrong with the members here saying "hey, this is not permissible and there are penalties should you engage in such behaviors".

[G G]

Maybe that mentality will help prevent this **** from happening again.
Sorry if it offends any one but I have to agree. Getting these situations out in the open may keep me or you from getting stuck for some money.

[Resipsa]

Sorry if it offends any one but I have to agree. Getting these situations out in the open may keep me or you from getting stuck for some money.

Sorry but I disagree. Why don't we all just start searching through the trader ratings and start posts and threads about every single person we suspect of being a bad trader, get the rope and string them up? To hell with guilt or innocence, they've been accused that's all we need right?

There's a process for people who feel aggrieved, and don't think it's in the spirit of this board what going on in this thread right now

[Scottw]

Sorry but I disagree. Why don't we all just start searching through the trader ratings and start posts and threads about every single person we suspect of being a bad trader, get the rope and string them up? To hell with guilt or innocence, they've been accused that's all we need right?

There's a process for people who feel aggrieved, and don't think it's in the spirit of this board what going on in this thread right now

I am not trying to say that here. I think that would be too aggressive but in the case of Dan let's say. If 3 -4 months goes by and you see that 4-5-6 people are giving negative feedback, maybe put up a bulletin or something so people can see if this is affecting them too. Some people forget what they are involved in. I remembered 3 months later that I had purchased from Dan so I began PM'ing him and finally, I got what I ordered but it was damaged. I dont think we need to expose every negative trader rating but if it is blatantly obvious that something is up, I think we owe it to one another to let each other know. If there is a defense (in this case, the accused is silent), it will hopefully be heard. If I know that you are getting screwed on something and I know this because it once happened to me, what kind of person am I if I don't let you know what is or what maybe is up?

[bigloo]

This is where the thread derails. I think everyone can agree on the following:

1) Buyer Beware.
2) Contact mods immediately at first signs of problems.
3) If needed, leave negative feedback (just like ebay, negative feedback is so rare here that even one raises my alert level to maximum).
4) Stay classy (no need to lynch anyone in public.. while not likely in these cases, there have been cases were a BOTL disappears with money due to emergency hospitalization/etc).
5) If/when mods have banned the person, feel free to post your feelings like Silverfox did here. Dan was found to be "guilty" and Silverfox made is public, letting the rest of us know, I have no problem with this.

I kind of agree a little with everyone. These acts do need to be brought to the attention of the board but this needs to be done civilly and with some diligence.

[bigloo]

I will actually extend what I said above. When last did you leave truly honest feedback? I did a trade back on CS with a BOTL with like 40 possitive feedback who totally screwed me over. What did I do? I left him a glowing feedback... I personally believe people like this start slipping way before they do their final dissapearing acts but we dont leave truly honest feedback... my 2c.

[DavenportESQ]

This is where the thread derails. I think everyone can agree on the following:

1) Buyer Beware.
2) Contact mods immediately at first signs of problems.
3) If needed, leave negative feedback (just like ebay, negative feedback is so rare here that even one raises my alert level to maximum).
4) Stay classy (no need to lynch anyone in public.. while not likely in these cases, there have been cases were a BOTL disappears with money due to emergency hospitalization/etc).
5) If/when mods have banned the person, feel free to post your feelings like Silverfox did here. Dan was found to be "guilty" and Silverfox made is public, letting the rest of us know, I have no problem with this.

I kind of agree a little with everyone. These acts do need to be brought to the attention of the board but this needs to be done civilly and with some diligence.


So can we all move on?:2

[markem]

We are starting to not only drag in other names, but having meta discussions about the meta discussion. Perhaps it is time for this thread to die or close.

[bigloo]

Mark,

If folks want to have a civilized conversation about these incidents, how to prevent them, how to improve things, I see no reason to lock the thread.

Lu

[icehog3]

It's gettin' real close.....

[Martin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU

[hotreds]

Can't we all just get along?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/71/200060525_25ef776deb.jpg

[Starscream]

We are starting to not only drag in other names, but having meta discussions about the meta discussion. Perhaps it is time for this thread to die or close.

:tpd:

[yourchoice]

A possible compromise may be if next to the trader feedback number a percentage were displayed. I know I've seen this somewhere else, but I'm not sure if this version of vB supports it. Just a suggestion that may permit negative feedback to be more visible (ie, anything not 100%). People should still do their own homework, but a person's trade history would be more visible that way for all to see if you have a deal in the works with him/her or not.

[icehog3]

Mark,

If folks want to have a civilized conversation about these incidents, how to prevent them, how to improve things, I see no reason to lock the thread.

Lu

The Mods discussed Dan long and hard, spoke to lots of affected parties, etc, before all this started. Thus, the thread about Dan was allowed to go forward. Throwing out another name, where all we have seen is negative feedback comments and we have none of the details, is a different matter completely. :2

[bigloo]

The Mods discussed Dan long and hard, spoke to lots of affected parties, etc, before all this started. Thus, the thread about Dan was allowed to go forward. Throwing out another name, where all we have seen is negative feedback comments and we have none of the details, is a different matter completely. :2

Icehog... I agree... see my post above about not lynching. I do however feel if some positive actions came of this like leaving meaningful feedback, early reporting of problems, etc, came out of the thread it would be a positive ending. I agree 100% about dragging other names into this.

[icehog3]

Icehog... I agree... see my post above about not lynching. I do however feel if some positive actions came of this like leaving meaningful feedback, early reporting of problems, etc, came out of the thread it would be a positive ending. I agree 100% about dragging other names into this.

Sorry, Lu, I was just using your post as a jumping off point, not implying that you were supporting the ideas I was discussing. :)

[bigloo]

Icehog :chr Lu --- all good:)

[markem]

Icehog... I agree... see my post above about not lynching. I do however feel if some positive actions came of this like leaving meaningful feedback, early reporting of problems, etc, came out of the thread it would be a positive ending. I agree 100% about dragging other names into this.

No offense Lu (and I'll buy your drinks at our next herf if I did inadvertently offend you) but what of the lessons you list is new to anyone here? Does anyone read the stickies?

Why would anyone fail to leave meaningful feedback or trader information and why would anyone who suspects that they were taken remain silent (besides the obvious embarrassment factor)?

I think that this thread, early one, provided a cathartic release for those involved, but it has long since left that behind.

[Resipsa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU

Classic, and so apropos. Lololl

[G G]

Sorry but I disagree. Why don't we all just start searching through the trader ratings and start posts and threads about every single person we suspect of being a bad trader, get the rope and string them up? To hell with guilt or innocence, they've been accused that's all we need right?

There's a process for people who feel aggrieved, and don't think it's in the spirit of this board what going on in this thread right now


Then I respectfully agree to disagree with you. I would prefer to know is all I am saying, and not just who I "suspect" If some one has negative feedback and no good reason why, I will steer clear of dealing with that person.:) You prolly apply that same level of being careful on ebay or anywhere else you are spending your money.

[DavenportESQ]

No offense Lu (and I'll buy your drinks at our next herf if I did inadvertently offend you) but what of the lessons you list is new to anyone here? Does anyone read the stickies?

Why would anyone fail to leave meaningful feedback or trader information and why would anyone who suspects that they were taken remain silent (besides the obvious embarrassment factor)?

I think that this thread, early one, provided a cathartic release for those involved, but it has long since left that behind.

For once :tpd:
:r

[Buena Fortuna]

Maybe that mentality will help prevent this **** from happening again.

I seriously doubt it...it's a flawed world we live in filled with flawed people...including me and everyone here in the CA
Posted via Mobile Device

[bigloo]

Mark,

I call it the ebay effect. I will be the first to admit that while the majority of my feedback is accurate, I have left positive feedback for people who have not lived up to their end of the deal. I have never been screwed to the point where I recieved nothing, but I have had 2-3 week delayed shipping, received blind trade sticks well below par, etc, etc. I ignore the problems in fear that they will also leave poor feedback for me. I think this is a wider problem. It would honestly take theft to get me to leave negetive feedback which luckily has not happened to me. I believe people like Dan have warning signs well before they finish taking peoples money.

As far as the use of the thread, we are in agreement which is why I tried (maybe foolishly) to change its direction.

Lu

[Darrell]

This thread has gotten so far from the original subject and has turned into a fight between brothers who have never scammed or hurt anyone on here.

It's time to take a deep breath and walk away from the thread. Anything contributed from this point will likely be clouded by anger and completely counter-productive.

[/soap box]

[G G]

I seriously doubt it...it's a flawed world we live in filled with flawed people...including me and everyone here in the CA
Posted via Mobile Device
Cannot argue with you there.:banger

[The Poet]

This thread has gotten so far from the original subject and has turned into a fight between brothers who have never scammed or hurt anyone on here.

It's time to take a deep breath and walk away from the thread. Anything contributed from this point will likely be clouded by anger and completely counter-productive.

[/soap box]

FWIW, :tpd:

[floydpink]

..

[bigloo]

No dog in this fight myself, feel sorrry for those screwed over, hope the guy gets his due karma and all that, but....

This one really has me confused. Why on Earth did you leave "glowing feedback" when you were "totally screwed over" ???????

Been trying to stay out of controversy this year, but for the life of me, I can't make sense of this statement.

Read more... should become apparent (the "ebay" effect). No problem with the question though, I think truthful feedback is a problem and I dont believe the feedback left here (myself included) is always accurate.

[CigarDood]

Mark,

If folks want to have a civilized conversation about these incidents, how to prevent them, how to improve things, I see no reason to lock the thread.

Lu

:tpd:

[floydpink]

sorry, found your "ebay" thread after I posted, then deleted after reading more, which is tough in these multi page threads.

Hopefully I'm not a dying breed that speaks it as I mean it, and leaves feedback according to my experiences. not changing that for anything either.

You do nobody a favor, but the seller, by hiding negative experiences.

[Starscream]

http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/picture.php?albumid=330&pictureid=2509

This guy stole one of my cigars. He needs to be banned too.













(Just thought I would try to lighten the mood.);s

[CigarDood]

http://downloads.shizo.eu/Crossfire/internet_serious_business.jpg



This is the ultimate lighten the mood picture. :D

[Don Fernando]

Wow. And because it was already in public on the trader feedback you felt that you just had to drag it into here? This thread has a nasty gang mentality that isn't reflecting well on this board.

Mark, I like to warm my fellow botl's for scammers, that's all.

[Buena Fortuna]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU

Dan turned me into a newt :)
Posted via Mobile Device

[bobarian]

Mark, I like to warm my fellow botl's for scammers, that's all.

Unless you have personally been "scammed" and have discussed the situation with the mods, then such "warning" is unnecessary and beyond the spirit of CA. :rolleyes:

[icehog3]

Mark, I like to warm my fellow botl's for scammers, that's all.

But what if someone thinks another member is a scammer, but has no real proof, or is prejudiced, or mistaken, but we just let them call the person out on the Forum anyway? There are some ways to handle this to make sure everyone is as protected as possible. :2

[icehog3]

Unless you have personally been "scammed" and have discussed the situation with the mods, then such "warning" is unnecessary and beyond the spirit of CA. :rolleyes:

Beat me to it, Bob. :)

[bobarian]

Beat me to it, Bob. :)

:wo A first!

[poker]

Ok folks, I think most of us said what they wanted to say, and those that are out money got a chance to vent.

Its run its course. Move along, nothing more to see.