Pledge of Allegiance [Archive] - Cigar Asylum Cigar Forum

kaisersozei

05-29-2009, 08:53 AM

I went to my daughter's freshmen class academic awards ceremony today (she received an academic letter for a full year's worth of A's & B's, as well as a certificate of excellence for her performance at the French Congrès. :dance:) Anyway, there were a couple hundred students & parents in the auditorium and to start the ceremony, we all recited the Pledge of Allegiance.

It's been a while since I've said the Pledge in a group that large, and I couldn't help but reflect that the cadence of the Pledge is exactly the same, everywhere you go, regardless of what group is saying it. It's been exactly the same for the past 40 years since I learned it.

I pledge allegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic
for which it stands,
one Nation
under God
indivisible
with liberty
and justice for all.

Everybody knows exactly how long to pause between the words and phrases. Nobody ever said that it has to be recited that way, it just is.

I found it kind of comforting how some things--thankfully sometimes the small, seemingly unimportant things--don't change. Just thought I'd share.

:usa

ahc4353

05-29-2009, 08:58 AM

Thanks for sharing.

Darrell

05-29-2009, 08:59 AM

I'm glad people still do, I've heard some schools do not recite the pledge of allegiance and that pisses me off.

:salute:

G G

05-29-2009, 08:59 AM

:tu thanks.

Bruzee

05-29-2009, 09:01 AM

:usa Great story! :tu

MadAl

05-29-2009, 09:28 AM

Though the phrase "under G-d" wasn't in the original pledge (it was officially added in 1954 by Eisenhower supposedly in reaction to Communism).

taltos

05-29-2009, 09:36 AM

Though the phrase "under G-d" wasn't in the original pledge (it was officially added in 1954 by Eisenhower supposedly in reaction to Communism).It was added by President Eisenhower at the request of the Knights of Columbus.

akakirby

05-29-2009, 09:36 AM

Thanks for sharing!

MadAl

05-29-2009, 10:11 AM

It was added by President Eisenhower at the request of the Knights of Columbus.

Saw that on Wikipedia, also found this explanation at answers.com: The change is usually ascribed to a cold-war attempt at differentiating the United States from officially atheistic Communist countries.

taltos

05-29-2009, 10:22 AM

Believe what you want. Answers.com is incorrect. Don't want to get into a pissing contest over this though.

The Professor

05-29-2009, 10:34 AM

Actually ... you're both right. There was, indeed, an extended campaign by the KofC to add "under god"; but it was largely unsuccessful. Furthermore, it was articulated in a context of anti-communism and a resistance to atheism, which was seen as linked to communism.

It wasn't until Eisenhower was persuaded *by someone else* (i.e., not the KofC) that a Republican senator introduced legislation to alter the pledge. It was (a) knowledge of Eisenhower's support of such legislation and (b) the general anti-communist political context that enabled the legislation. The KofC played a role; but they aren't directly responsible.

Trust me. I'm a doctor. ;)

PS, I hope I don't regret posting in this thread....

Starscream

05-29-2009, 10:38 AM

My kids say it every morning at their school:tu, but we no longer do at the high school level.:(

TanithT

05-29-2009, 11:11 AM

I'm glad people still do, I've heard some schools do not recite the pledge of allegiance and that pisses me off.

I would support saying the Pledge in schools only if all religious references in it were removed, or taught as being optional or flexible. Our nation was founded as a reaction against religious intolerance, and for religious freedom, and that is a principle that deserves upholding.

It just ain't right to force somebody else's kids to say words that are against their family's basic beliefs, no matter what those beliefs are. There really needs to be a way to respectfully salute the flag without doing this. It is right to teach kids to salute the flag, but not right to force them to do it in the name of a particular religion. Despite the fact that "God" refers more or less accurately to the single deity in all of the various flavors of Judeo-Christianity, it does NOT cover religions entirely outside of this umbrella, nor does it respect those families that are atheist or agnostic.

Fundamentally, respect and allegiance for our nation are independent of any symbols or words we mouthed as kids, probably while we were mostly thinking about how to hit the kid in the next row with a spitball. Either we teach our kids those concepts in meaningful ways or we don't. Just repeating simple words over and over again can otherwise turn meaningless and empty, especially for children who are not going to understand the concepts in the Pledge unless they are taught them well. The issue is not whether we're getting kids to say the words, but whether we're doing a good enough job teaching them the meaning.

ahc4353

05-29-2009, 11:17 AM

I really like the OP's intent and will leave this thread with that memory.

Darrell

05-29-2009, 11:27 AM

I really like the OP's intent and will leave this thread with that memory.

:tpd:

I get myself in trouble enough around here, I'm outta this thread before it gets ugly. :r

Bruzee

05-29-2009, 11:31 AM

I can't believe this turned ugly. Wow. :lv

The Professor

05-29-2009, 11:40 AM

I can't believe this turned ugly. Wow. :lv
With all due respect, I don't think it turned ugly at all. It *could* still; but it hasn't yet. Hopefully it wont....

MadAl

05-29-2009, 11:43 AM

I don't think it turned ugly at all, either. Did I misinterpret something? Did I post something unintentionally ugly?

Sorry

csbrewfisher

05-29-2009, 11:55 AM

I would support saying the Pledge in schools only if all religious references in it were removed, or taught as being optional or flexible.
It just ain't right to force somebody else's kids to say words that are against their family's basic beliefs, no matter what those beliefs are.

Wow, I guess you wouldn't teach the Declaration of Independence either, or even let them see it. Yikes!

Lensjockie

05-29-2009, 11:56 AM

Under God is simply meant as a higher power than ourselves and that we should be guided to be better people throughtout our daily existence.

But the real point is in TanithT's last paragraph. Do we still teach the meaning of those words or are we producing people that take but never give back. Your God is your God by whatever name you call him/her/it. This was based on simpler times when religion was a "good" thing.

Have we, are we becoming a nation of sheeple or are we creating educated citizens......Sometimes you have to wonder.

My girls while still in Grade school understand that no matter where you came from, what background, what religion, you are an American first and all things else second. And that is something we have started to and maybe have even lost as a nation.

I am agnostic. I would like the the pledge to read differently but it is an institution in this country that should be upheld. I signed my name on the blank check written the government via the U.S. Army. I don't have to believe in the politics, or religions invovled.
I had to believe in something greater than myself in order to protect people's right to disagree, be heard, and vote for their elected officials. So all are entitled to their opinions, but if I'm wrong here the intent was take pride in your country and that in a time where everything is up to interpretation, somethings remain solid and part of tradition. I'll rifle up again if they asked me to, let's just hope the coming generations are willing to do the same when the time comes.

Lest we forget the small white headstones that fill the hillsides of our great nation no matter what our personal beliefs.

Okay I'm off my soapbox. Just struck a nerve if you know what I mean.

Bruzee

05-29-2009, 12:00 PM

With all due respect, I don't think it turned ugly at all. It *could* still; but it hasn't yet. Hopefully it wont....

I don't think it turned ugly at all, either. Did I misinterpret something? Did I post something unintentionally ugly?

Sorry

I got ugly when it became a religious conversation, which is not a good idea. There are too many STRONG opinions and beliefs here for this to end in a positive manner. :2 Not to mention the mods here don't allow these to go on too long. The OP didn't start a religious thread. No apology needed MadAl.

csbrewfisher

05-29-2009, 12:00 PM

Congrats to the OP's daughter!

taltos

05-29-2009, 12:04 PM

I am sorry if I started anything when I stated my understanding of where one phrase came from. It was not my intent which is why I backed out of the thread.

TanithT

05-29-2009, 12:08 PM

I think we can all be adult enough to share and respect each other's perspectives and opinions without it turning ugly. I would like to respectfully offer a short glimpse into perspective from a different culture, and some people may find it interesting or educational even if it is not their culture.

I am currently agnostic; I would say now that my religion is science. But I grew up Pagan. To me, the reference to someone else's strange, and to me very frightening, religious belief about a single all powerful male deity with a long history of not being particularly kind to our sort of folk made the Pledge into something I feared and rejected as a child.

That isn't really a good result if the intent of putting the Pledge into schools is to instill respect and allegiance for our nation's flag into children of all cultures and backgrounds. In retrospect, I think it would have been nice if I could have grown up being able to say the Pledge with a whole heart, without the issues caused by putting religion into it. Maybe we could offer something more positive for the next generation of kids who don't happen to come from any Judeo-Christian background, but do want to salute the flag.

M1903A1

05-29-2009, 12:11 PM

I remember reciting it in class at least as late as elementary school.

Of course, out on the playground we had some different verses....:D

TanithT

05-29-2009, 12:19 PM

I remember reciting it in class at least as late as elementary school.

Of course, out on the playground we had some different verses....:D

Exactly. LOL

Seriously, the issue here is that kids are already inclined to make fun of any ritual or routine forced on them, or ignore it, or go through the motions without caring or understanding. Saying the words every morning is not going to have nearly as much effect as actually teaching them in a meaningful about respect, dignity, loyalty and pride in their country. So in a lot of ways, the Pledge itself and the words of it don't matter. The intent behind it does, and the only way to get that intent from a child is to teach it from the inside. You can't force it on them from the outside, or else they will just make it into a playground parody.

kaisersozei

05-29-2009, 12:26 PM

Not entirely sure how we got to ^^this from my op, but oh well.... such is the risk & privilege of posting in a public forum. :rolleyes:

Genetic Defect

05-29-2009, 12:28 PM

I got ugly when it became a religious conversation, which is not a good idea. There are too many STRONG opinions and beliefs here for this to end in a positive manner. :2 Not to mention the mods here don't allow these to go on too long. The OP didn't start a religious thread. No apology needed MadAl.

I wouldn't call you ugly :wo

Bruzee

05-29-2009, 01:55 PM

I wouldn't call you ugly :wo

Opps... You wouldn't but I know a lot of people that would! :r

LasciviousXXX

05-29-2009, 02:02 PM

Thanks to the OP of this thread :tu

As a non-Christian who believes whole-heartedly in reciting the entire pledge of allegiance I thank you :)

Bruzee

05-29-2009, 02:28 PM

Dude Dustin, nice avatar! :dr

TanithT

05-29-2009, 04:08 PM

As a non-Christian who believes whole-heartedly in reciting the entire pledge of allegiance I thank you :)

I respect your choice, and for myself, I feel it is more important to make a pledge of allegiance to my country that I can personally believe in than to repeat words by rote that I don't agree with.

I hope that everyone who salutes the flag, whether they are Christian, atheist, Pagan, agnostic, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, Native American or otherwise, can be allowed to do so in a way that is truly meaningful to them. One of the great principles our country was founded on was the separation of church and state, and I support that wholeheartedly.

LasciviousXXX

05-29-2009, 04:19 PM

I'm fairly certain that the discussion we're having right now was not the OP's intent when he decided to post.

I appreciate your willingness to state your opinions and beliefs however the rules of CA prohibit threads that are inherently religious or political in nature so I'll ask you to refrain from that in the future.

Both politics and religion are very personal topics for people and inevitably there will be disagreements and possibly misunderstandings when the subjects arise. In the spirit of friendship and love of the leaf we ask that those two topics are left out of the discussion.

detroitpha357

05-29-2009, 04:44 PM

I went to my daughter's freshmen class academic awards ceremony today (she received an academic letter for a full year's worth of A's & B's, as well as a certificate of excellence for her performance at the French Congrès. :dance:)

:tuCongrads to your daughter as well as yourself. Please keep up the good work with your daughte.:tu You should be very proud of yourself.:dance:

shvictor

05-29-2009, 04:45 PM

Opps... You wouldn't but I know a lot of people that would! :r

:D:D:D

nozero

05-29-2009, 05:25 PM

I'm posting this because I like it and hope others may as well. No other intent, no matter what you may think. I liked Red as a kid and still do...

Red Skelton & the Pledge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPbIls0iOnI

TanithT

05-29-2009, 06:00 PM

I appreciate your willingness to state your opinions and beliefs however the rules of CA prohibit threads that are inherently religious or political in nature so I'll ask you to refrain from that in the future.

I respect the views and beliefs of others, I trust that others are willing to do the same for me, and I'm happy to leave it at that.

ChicagoWhiteSox

05-29-2009, 06:01 PM

nozero

05-29-2009, 06:03 PM

I respect the views and beliefs of others, I trust that others are willing to do the same for me, and I'm happy to leave it at that.

Touché!

HK3-

05-29-2009, 06:29 PM

Very nice Gerard! You should be very proud. :tu

G G

05-29-2009, 06:30 PM

jjirons69

05-29-2009, 06:47 PM

Gerard, my daughter's 4 year-old 4k class recited the PoA at their graduation last week. It was pretty cool to hear about 40 4 and 5 year-olds reciting it word for word. The only thing I would've changed - my daughter was the only one with her left hand over her heart. :rolleyes:

JaKaacH

05-29-2009, 06:58 PM

I guess we should take "in God we trust" off our dollar, take "God" off many of our monuments, and use one of Michael Moore's books to put our hand on to "swear to tell the truth" instead of the Bible:rolleyes: What is happening to this great country of ours?:usa
:tpd:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/jkach/untitled-3-1.jpg

:wohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfUV57PT7-E&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fboortz%2Ecom%2Fnealz%5Fnuze%2Fin dex%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded

rrplasencia

05-29-2009, 08:20 PM

congrats to your daughter, can't wait to hear my son say it when he starts pre-k this fall.

TanithT

05-29-2009, 09:38 PM

There is a saying about walking a mile in your neighbor's moccasins if you actually want to understand what it feels like from their cultural perspective. It is a very good metaphorical exercise. Do try it, please, at least in your own imagination.

moosie

05-29-2009, 10:58 PM

I love America.

ChicagoWhiteSox

05-29-2009, 11:26 PM

Our founding fathers believed that without God, and prayer, the country would never succeed. From 1774 until now, there has been opening prayer in congress. Read the first opening prayer on sept. 7, 1774. http://chaplain.house.gov/archive/continental.html

In this video, listen to what Benjamin Franklin wrote to George Washington
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGpoGgEoC6U&feature=related

With what our founding fathers wrote, it seems that "under God" fits in the PofA.

I may or may not agree with anything above. Nothing in this post besides whats underlined, is my opinion or view.