H.R. 45 firearm registration bill

[MarkinAZ]

Aka, “Blair Holt's Firearm Licensing and Record of Sale Act of 2009”


My fellow inmates, it never seems to end does it?:bh H.R. 45 has been created by Congressman Bobby Rush (D) Illinois, and reads something as follows:

To provide for the implementation of a system of licensing for purchasers of certain firearms and for a record of sale system for those firearms, and for other purposes.

1/6/2009--Introduced.
Blair Holt’s Firearm Licensing and Record of Sale Act of 2009 - Amends the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act to prohibit a person from possessing a firearm unless that person has been issued a firearm license under this Act or a state system certified under this Act and such license has not been invalidated or revoked. Prescribes license application, issuance, and renewal requirements. Prohibits transferring or receiving a qualifying firearm unless the recipient presents a valid firearms license, the license is verified, and the dealer records a tracking authorization number. Prescribes firearms transfer reporting and record keeping requirements. Directs the Attorney General to establish and maintain a federal record of sale system.
Prohibits:
(1) transferring a firearm to any person other than a licensee, unless the transfer is processed through a licensed dealer in accordance with national instant criminal background check system requirements, with exceptions; (I believe nowaday, most states, such as California et. al., require a person to go through a licensed dealer when selling a revolver, pistol, or rifle to another person. Is this not the current standard in your state?);
(2) a licensed manufacturer or dealer from failing to comply with reporting and record keeping requirements of this Act; (I believe manufacturers and dealers already have to comply as per their respective state DOJ and BATF. Why compound the issue?);
(3) failing to report the loss or theft of the firearm to the Attorney General within 72 hours; (Why? I’d probably file a claim with my insurance carrier though…);
(4) failing to report to the Attorney General an address change within 60 days; (Again, why?);
(5) keeping a loaded firearm, or an unloaded firearm and ammunition for the firearm, knowingly or recklessly disregarding the risk that a child is capable of gaining access, if a child uses the firearm and causes death or serious bodily injury. (I believe a number of sovereign states already have this paragraph covered); Prescribes criminal penalties for violations of firearms provisions covered by this Act.

Directs the Attorney General to:

(1) establish and maintain a firearm injury information clearinghouse; (Why? Doesn’t the FBI and BATF already have this covered?);

(2) conduct continuing studies and investigations of firearm-related deaths and injuries; (Again, why? Doesn’t the FBI and BATF already have this covered?); and

(3) collect and maintain current production and sales figures of each licensed manufacturer. (Why? Doesn’t the commerce department of each sovereign state usually perform this task, that we pay for?);

Authorizes the Attorney General to certify state firearm licensing or record of sale systems. (Why? That’s why each sovereign state has a DOJ and their own AG to oversee their own direction in this matter, without involvement from the Federal government);

What this basically equates to is a potentially universal NATIONAL FIREARMS REGISTRATION LAW funded by the burden of extra taxes that we do not need and will not accept.

We already have a successful system of background checks and registration in this country, and I feel we do not need a Federal system on top of the already existing state system currently in place. What say you?

BTW: If you're in disagreement with this bill, please feel free to contact your local Congressman or Senator to share your feelings:D

[Thrak]

In GA you can sell a firearm face to face with no dealer or any "middle man". You do have to believe that person you sell to is a "good citizen" with no criminal history.


This bill is a bunch of crap... as if there isnt more important things to worry about sheesh. Just another power grab...

[Rabidsquirrel]

This bill is a bunch of crap... as if there isnt more important things to worry about sheesh. Just another power grab...

I doubt you'd say the same thing if you lived in Philadelphia and you were a cop. I forget how many we've buried this year already, 3?

[Thrak]

... and that is the fault of the gun? Or the criminal with the gun? Do you blame the car, or the drunk behind the wheel?

Dont limit MY rights because you think criminals will follow new gun laws, when they dont follow the ones on the books now.

[Kreth]

I doubt you'd say the same thing if you lived in Philadelphia and you were a cop. I forget how many we've buried this year already, 3?
And this would help how? The bad guys aren't known for following the existing rules, why would they follow new ones?

[elderboy02]

I think this bill is a bunch of BS. :fl

[Rabidsquirrel]

And this would help how? The bad guys aren't known for following the existing rules, why would they follow new ones?

Yes, I realize if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns. It doesn't mean we have to make it easy for them to get them. If you choke off the easy supply, eventually things will begin to calm down.

And why is it a bad thing to report that your gun was lost or stolen? I don't see why anyone would balk at this, other than to cause trouble.

[Kreth]

And why is it a bad thing to report that your gun was lost or stolen? I don't see why anyone would balk at this, other than to cause trouble.
I think the main objection is that all of this stuff is covered by existing laws. Why should I have to jump through hoops to exercise my 2nd amendment rights?

[M1903A1]

Yes, I realize if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns. It doesn't mean we have to make it easy for them to get them. If you choke off the easy supply, eventually things will begin to calm down.

There is no choking off the "easy supply". We can't even keep drugs from crossing the borders.

And why is it a bad thing to report that your gun was lost or stolen? I don't see why anyone would balk at this, other than to cause trouble.

Suppose it gets stolen (say from a storage unit) and you don't find out until more than 72 hours later?

[Rabidsquirrel]

There is no choking off the "easy supply". We can't even keep drugs from crossing the borders.


So you're ok with straw purchases than?


Suppose it gets stolen (say from a storage unit) and you don't find out until more than 72 hours later?

It doesn't say the moment it gets stolen. It's when you find out about it.

I think the main objection is that all of this stuff is covered by existing laws.

That I wasn't aware of.

Why should I have to jump through hoops to exercise my 2nd amendment rights?

I'm all for your right to bear arms. I just don't think it should be easy for criminals to get guns.

[DrDubzz]

maybe I'm naive, but I fail to see how this makes it harder for criminals to get guns

I do, however, see how it makes it harder for honest citizens to get guns

[blugill]

maybe I'm naive, but I fail to see how this makes it harder for criminals to get guns

I do, however, see how it makes it harder for honest citizens to get guns

Amen

[Ace$nyper]

I doubt you'd say the same thing if you lived in Philadelphia and you were a cop. I forget how many we've buried this year already, 3?
Yea the cops are too busy shooting their dogs around Monkey county.
They just don't want to compete?

edit: the story
http://www.timesherald.com/articles/2008/10/23/news/doc48fff57fbd87a983617874.txt

[alley00p]

maybe I'm naive, but I fail to see how this makes it harder for criminals to get guns

I do, however, see how it makes it harder for honest citizens to get guns

:tpd:

There are over 20,000 firearm laws in this country now (Federal State and Local), and MOST are not enforced to their full extent due to criminal lawyers cutting deals regarding the possesion of handguns by those with felonies and other restrictions!

Adding this law is equivalent to creating a National Gun Registration, something the Nazi's did prior to taking over the government in Germany in the 1930's.

This law won't keep a criminal from procuring or carrying a handgun - but it will keep honest citizens from doing that.

That's my :2 - YMMV!




:dance:

[Starchild]

:tpd: Well said

[MarkinAZ]

:tpd:

Adding this law is equivalent to creating a National Gun Registration, something the Nazi's did prior to taking over the government in Germany in the 1930's.
That's my :2 - YMMV!

:dance:


And that my friend is what it is eventually all about, "National Gun Registration" for the eventual confiscation of your firearm.

Its not gonna be allowed to occur in my opinion period!!

[ChicagoWhiteSox]

I think this bill is a bunch of BS. :fl

:tpd:

[Genetic Defect]

I'm all for your right to bear arms. I just don't think it should be easy for criminals to get guns.
ande passing laws does what for criminals? When did they start following laws?;)

[white_s2k]

The founding fathers of the U.S. Constitution would slap the sh*t out of Congressman Bobby Rush if they were still alive. :2

[Genetic Defect]

The founding fathers of the U.S. Constitution would slap the sh*t out of Congressman Bobby Rush if they were still alive. :2

I wish they could rise

[Ubergopher]

There is no doubt in my mind that he means well, but that reminds me of a quote by CS Lewis.

"Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. "

[Silound]

I'm all for a more thorough registration and sale system, I'm not for paying for it with my taxes.

Honestly, it should have been mandated a long time ago that to own a firearm you must also have an up-to-date state/federal registration in your name for the firearm you own. Nothing more than what we do now with license plates for cars. Just to prevent people from skirting through loopholes in laws that the special advocate groups insist on so that Billy-Bob in Texarkana, who's recently paroled on manslaughter charge, can somehow acquire a firearm (simply because it's his right to own one, even if he legally can't possess or purchase one as a felon) from some random guy who could legally buy one and didn't know Billy-Bob was a convicted felon.


Edit to add that I'm not a gun-control nut by any means. I have many firearms, and while I don't want Uncle Sam looking over my shoulder and telling me what I can and cannot do with them, I'd prefer to share that information with the government to prevent some people from obtaining firearms for reasons that are no good.

[Sauer Grapes]

But it won't prevent the criminals from obtaining firearms.

There are already laws against felons from possessing firearms. Heck, a felon can't even have one round in his pocket or car.

[BigAl_SC]

Adding this law is equivalent to creating a National Gun Registration, something the Nazi's did prior to taking over the government in Germany in the 1930's.

This law won't keep a criminal from procuring or carrying a handgun - but it will keep honest citizens from doing that.




That is 100% the reason for this bill. This will register the guns of the law abiding citizens and not of the criminals that do not follow the law now. By stopping the sale from law abiding citizen to law abiding citizen (ie. gun show sales, newspaper sales, gun club member to gun club member), the government creates a registry that can be used when ever they wish. They will worry about the criminals with guns when they are the only ones left with them. Seems to me to have the priorities backward.

[Thrak]

so that Billy-Bob in Texarkana, who's recently paroled on manslaughter charge, can somehow acquire a firearm (simply because it's his right to own one, even if he legally can't possess or purchase one as a felon) from some random guy who could legally buy one and didn't know Billy-Bob was a convicted felon.

Thats already illegal, we dont need more laws to make it "more" illegal. Its called a straw purchase.

[blugill]

If a bad guy wants a firearm he will get it. If it is illegal to buy he will steal it. If it is illegal to steal he will kill for it.

The more road blocks the government puts up to discourage honest people from buying firearms the less they have to fear from the citizens who are seeing their future ruined by an out of control government.

[taltos]

Congress is afraid that the general population will finally realize the intent of the Second Amendment; it is there to protect this country's citizens from an out of control government.

[Tombstone]

Revolution!!!

[G G]

I doubt you'd say the same thing if you lived in Philadelphia and you were a cop. I forget how many we've buried this year already, 3?
Most of the criminals are not buying them legally now, and they wont with a new law. They are not going to follow the law, they will still buy them on the street.:)

And I am sorry to hear about the three brave men that have died because of thugs.

[M1903A1]

I doubt you'd say the same thing if you lived in Philadelphia and you were a cop. I forget how many we've buried this year already, 3?

I regard gun control as the social equivalent of slapping a band-aid on cancer, or trying to patch the rotten wood of a house that's gone bad because nobody's doing (or willing to do) the necessary upkeep. It's a looks-good-feels-good-accomplishes-nothing approach to a circumstance where serious examination shows that the real solution is much more difficult.

[uptown_isy]

Amen

Amen 2X

[BC-Axeman]

I wish they could rise
They are us.

[Stig]

The sond amendment gives us the right to keep and bear arms, it doesn't say anything about a license. Sounds like a direct violation of the second amendment. If they spent as much time in Washington trying to figure out how to get the guns out of the hands of criminals and get those guns of the steet as the spent trying to make it tougher for honest citizens to get guns then maybe there would be fewer of them on the street. I say give everyone without a criminal record a gun, it deffinitely is a huge deterant to someone trying to break into your house, mug you on the street or jack your car if they know that you can shoot back.

[Silound]

Thats already illegal, we dont need more laws to make it "more" illegal. Its called a straw purchase.

It's already illegal, but there's no safeguards. If the seller and Billy-Bob had to go fill out the paperwork and register it, it would come to the attention of the seller that Billy-Bob can't legally own a firearm. Sale prevented, and the seller doesn't assume any legal responsibility.


It's not a law to make it "more illegal", it's needing to put in safeguards that enforce the current laws better.

[BC-Axeman]

Sounds like more reason for me to stock up on firearms, just in case I have to provide some for people in an "emergency".;) Oh, and ammo and reloading supplies too (which for some reason are in seriously short supply lately). :D

[BigAl_SC]

It's already illegal, but there's no safeguards. If the seller and Billy-Bob had to go fill out the paperwork and register it, it would come to the attention of the seller that Billy-Bob can't legally own a firearm. Sale prevented, and the seller doesn't assume any legal responsibility.


It's not a law to make it "more illegal", it's needing to put in safeguards that enforce the current laws better.

I understand your point. Your assuming that Billy-Bob, being the scum he is, wouldn't just steal a gun or purchase a stolen one.

This brings us back to my original thesis that this is just a front to get the legal guns registered so that someday they say 'This registration is not working to get the guns away from the crooks. Lets confiscate all of the registered ones.'

This law does not affect the criminals at all. Only lets the government know where the legal ones are at.

[Silound]

Very good point about him being scum :)


I just don't see how, under any circumstances, the government will ever be able to take away legally registered guns. Look what hell the automatic weapons ban went through to pass, and they're still legal if they were manufactured before a certain year (84 I think?), which a large number were indeed.

God forbid anyone tried to outlaw guns, we'd have another War of Northern Aggression (another Civil War for those who never heard that joke :r:r).

[BigAl_SC]

I just don't see how, under any circumstances, the government will ever be able to take away legally registered guns.

1930's Germany, Those that didn't support the government, lost their weapons. Who would have believed the things congress has done in the last 12 months, back in 1982. Please don't let this get political. Its against the rules......


God forbid anyone tried to outlaw guns, we'd have another War of Northern Aggression

Being from South Carolina, I appreciate you using the correct name.:):):)

[MarkinAZ]

1930's Germany, Those that didn't support the government, lost their weapons.

That's absolutely correct and a part of history that may have been white washed from our childrens school cirriculum. In Nazi Germany, it was gun registration, gun confiscation, and then the round-up and extermination of the Jewish people...

[Rabidsquirrel]

Most of the criminals are not buying them legally now, and they wont with a new law. They are not going to follow the law, they will still buy them on the street.:)


Of course they won't legally buy them. The get their family/wives/girlfriends to legally buy them and give them to them.

I don't need people to keep telling me that criminals don't follow the law. They're called criminals for a reason, I realize that. If you crack down on the people that willingly give known criminals a handgun, it's a start.

[BC-Axeman]

That's absolutely correct and a part of history that may have been white washed from our childrens school cirriculum. In Nazi Germany, it was gun registration, gun confiscation, and then the round-up and extermination of the Jewish people...
Hitler was very charming, charismatic, an excellent speaker, full of hope for change. He was extremely popular and had unopposed support from the media. He turned the economy around from a severe depression. Some people didn't agree with him and they had to be shown how they were mistaken. He may have gone a little too far, here or there. Now Stalin really had it down. His Utopia almost succeded.
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Or eliminated.
/s
BTW, gun registration (not equals) extermination.

[M1903A1]

I just don't see how, under any circumstances, the government will ever be able to take away legally registered guns. Look what hell the automatic weapons ban went through to pass, and they're still legal if they were manufactured before a certain year (84 I think?), which a large number were indeed.

The "automatic weapons ban" was passed on a voice vote (of questionable legality) as part of an overall pro-gun package in 1986. Anything that was registered with the ATF before May 19, 1986 (the day the bill became law) is still legal and transferable (with prices to match).

The so-called "assault weapon ban" was a whole 'nother matter and revolved around physical characteristics (bayonet lugs, magazine capacities etc.) that really had very little to do with how potentially lethal a given gun was.

Another reason why I don't like the idea of registration is...suppose somebody gets hold of part of the registry? That would be an easy way for anybody with a mind towards stealing something to "go where the pickin's are".

[taltos]

Keep in mind that the British tried to disarm subjects in the Colonies whose loyalty to the crown was questionable. This is why in New England there were huge caches of weapons around Lexington and Concord. The British also tried to disarm the Irish and the Indians when attempting to subjugate them.

Registration equals easier disarmament of law abiding citizens. That is the step taken before the suspension of the Constitution and whoever is President installing themself as dictator. This is why the Second Amendment is so important.

[MarkinAZ]

BTW, gun registration (not equals) extermination.

Hopefully, you got my point Lance how one individual had a hard-on for the Jewish population. Fortunately, he did not succeed at his goal, but did make a determined effort to totally eliminate these kind and wonderful people. It started with the registration and then the disarming of the population, who then could not defend themselves from an overbearing and oppressive government.

This, I will not allow to occur in my country, period...

[Sauer Grapes]

Of course they won't legally buy them. The get their family/wives/girlfriends to legally buy them and give them to them.

I don't need people to keep telling me that criminals don't follow the law. They're called criminals for a reason, I realize that. If you crack down on the people that willingly give known criminals a handgun, it's a start.

There is no way for their family/wives/girlfriends to legally buy them and give them to them. In doing so, they have lied on a federal form and committed at least two felonies. Any straw purchase is an illegal purchase through fraud and therefore those guns weren't purchased legally. You pretty much just gave ANOTHER example of how criminals will find a way to get a gun. At what point do we stop punishing the law abiding citizens?

As I see it, there are two options.

1) take all guns (criminals will still have them, but there will be less around for sure)

2) enforce the current laws with very strict punishments, ones that some will even call too much. Of course, that'll never fly because we protect criminals in this country because "it's not their fault" and "it's society's fault." Seriously, IMO, if a convicted felon is found in possession of a firearm, I think it should be mandatory life in prison.

[Silound]

1930's Germany, Those that didn't support the government, lost their weapons. Who would have believed the things congress has done in the last 12 months, back in 1982. Please don't let this get political. Its against the rules......



Being from South Carolina, I appreciate you using the correct name.:):):)

Hitler was very charming, charismatic, an excellent speaker, full of hope for change. He was extremely popular and had unopposed support from the media. He turned the economy around from a severe depression. Some people didn't agree with him and they had to be shown how they were mistaken. He may have gone a little too far, here or there. Now Stalin really had it down. His Utopia almost succeded.
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Or eliminated.
/s
BTW, gun registration (not equals) extermination.

/threadjack

Off topic, but Godwin's Law wins again :) Reductio ad Hitlerum!


/threadjack off

[Sauer Grapes]

Also... registration is unnecessary in the prevention of straw purchases. If a gun used in a crime is found, and they haven't completely removed the serial number beyond restoration, then the ATF has the ability to trace the history of the gun back to any purchase that took place through an FFL, and a lot of times even some purchases that weren't through an FFL. They are able to catch straw purchasers now without registration.

[Genetic Defect]

I am out of this one ....

[white_s2k]

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." – Robert A. Heinlein

[BC-Axeman]

"Freedom isn't free, slavery is." -- Me

[BigAl_SC]

I am out of this one ....

While I have definite opinions on where this bill is leading, I agree that as this has the potential to go from gun control to political, I am also out of this one as of now.

[taltos]

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." – Robert A. HeinleinLazarus Long? Have to read him again.

[BC-Axeman]

"Time Enough for Love"
A most excellent book.

[BC-Axeman]

I heard that the reason they want to ban "assault rifles" is to keep "sophisticated weapons" from USA going to MEXICAN drug criminals. This is so absurd on so many levels that only a government propagandist could come up with it.
Since when is a cheap Chinese AK47 a "sophisticated weapon" anyway?

[357]

For those who see no risk in registration, see England, Canada, and Austraila as examples. Registration is usually followed by confiscation. Once they have a list, it's much easier.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

- Thomas Jefferson


The Constitution preserves "the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation. . . (where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." -- The Federalist, No. 46

- James Madison

[Nick]

The problem with this bill is that it does not target criminals or outlaws. Most gun legislation does not attack the black market or illegal trafficking of guns which it should. It targets honest everyday citizens and their wallets. I could pull up some stats from Australia and how their crime rate has gone through the roof since they banned guns but I'll let some one else do that.

[M1903A1]

I heard that the reason they want to ban "assault rifles" is to keep "sophisticated weapons" from USA going to MEXICAN drug criminals. This is so absurd on so many levels that only a government propagandist could come up with it.
Since when is a cheap Chinese AK47 a "sophisticated weapon" anyway?

Ironically, as I understand it, a selective-fire AK is actually CHEAPER on the world market ($150-200?) than any semiauto AK you could find in the States. And there's literally tens of millions of them out there.

[357]

Ironically, as I understand it, a selective-fire AK is actually CHEAPER on the world market ($150-200?) than any semiauto AK you could find in the States. And there's literally tens of millions of them out there.

I've read you can buy full-auto AKs in Iraq for $50, and it's 100% legal.

[BC-Axeman]

All of the vids and pictures of Mexican drug criminals showed them with some kind of AK variant. They are very cheap and available anywhere but here.

[TheRiddick]

I never wanted to buy a gun before, but all this non-sense lately is making me rethink this. I'll probably buy one soon.

[M1903A1]

I've read you can buy full-auto AKs in Iraq for $50, and it's 100% legal.

I remember reading you could buy some of that stuff legally even in the Hussein era. (That's IF you had the money of course, and when the authorities have PKMs and RPGs, an AK is slim pickings in comparison!)