Mikes Cigars loses Oliva.

[rrplasencia]

I searched forum but if this was posted already please close.

Oliva pulled Mike's Cigars account after two warnings to sell the Oliva lines closer to msrp. The third strike came when Oliva Sr. was looking through a mikes catalog and saw an Oliva sampler at half msrp. So they pulled the $500,000.00 account.

I can respect them looking out for local b&m's not being run out of business by the internet giants.

[SixPackSunday]

thats awesome. can i give them RG?

[borndead1]

Wow. They ain't playin' around.


How does something like that work? Does Oliva pull all the stock that Mike's has or just stop selling to them?

[Volt]

Who is Mikes Cigars?

[NCRadioMan]

Wow. They ain't playin' around.


How does something like that work? Does Oliva pull all the stock that Mike's has or just stop selling to them?

Just stop selling to them. They can't pull stock that has already been paid for. As a retailer, you have to sign a contract saying you will not do this type thing or the account could be pulled. However, there are other distributors that you can get cigars from but it will cost a little bit more.

[GrtndpwrflOZ]

thats awesome. can i give them RG?

Whom? Mike's Cigars or Oliva?

"THAT'S AWESOME" ????? Yeah, if you're a retailer.

If you could find smokes for close to 1/2 the MSRP wouldn't you think it's AWESOME?

[Yazzie]

Really, If I can get my V's at 1/2 price then that's a good deal for me. I'm not all that concerned with the B&M's

[Stick]

Who is Mikes Cigars?
www.mikescigars.com
Posted via Mobile Device

[NCRadioMan]

Really, If I can get my V's at 1/2 price then that's a good deal for me. I'm not all that concerned with the B&M's

That's very selfish of you.

I, for one, am glad this can happen because it helps protect my job.

[doctorcue]

I do think that manufacturers have the right to protect their brand. If one place sells WAY cheap it devalues their line. Also, I'm sure there was a contractual price when Mike's started carrying the Oliva line.

Chalk this up as a win for B&Ms everywhere. I don't mind paying more for smokes; this is a luxury. I don't NEED cigars; I choose to smoke them.

[ucla695]

The B&Ms got two warnings and should have known better, but it’s a loss for the consumer

[Sauer Grapes]

I don't see anything close to half msrp on their site... :confused:

[Kreth]

This is really similar to how the golf industry operates. Some of the big OEMs, like Ping, are notorious for using "secret shoppers" to check for accounts selling below MSRP.

[calhounhusker]

I don't see anything close to half msrp on their site... :confused:

I think he is talking about this..

https://www.mikescigars.com/ProductDetail.aspx/OLIVA-SUPER-SAMPLER/29260

[Sauer Grapes]

Now that makes more sense.

[GWN]

I do think that manufacturers have the right to protect their brand. If one place sells WAY cheap it devalues their line. Also, I'm sure there was a contractual price when Mike's started carrying the Oliva line.

Chalk this up as a win for B&Ms everywhere. I don't mind paying more for smokes; this is a luxury. I don't NEED cigars; I choose to smoke them.

It's not unique to the cigar industry. Apple has always done this.

[elderboy02]

Very interesting :hm

[pnoon]

Nice review.

[houdini]

I think he is talking about this..

https://www.mikescigars.com/ProductDetail.aspx/OLIVA-SUPER-SAMPLER/29260

Good deal too!

[Silound]

I'm of mixed opinions about this, mostly because I've only got a limited amount of information. As far as I can tell, that sampler is the only thing that's being sold so far below MSRP.

Any retail knowledgeable person will tell you that brand recognition is a major player in sales. Many retailers (whatever the product is) sell a certain item of a name brand as a "loss leader" to attract other sales. If I like the cigars in this sampler, I'm very apt to buy more of those cigars, probably at the full price. So it's very possible that MikesCigars was using that sampler to boost Oliva sales. Why they didn't simply make arrangement to do this with Oliva, I'm not sure.

I can also see Oliva's point of view trying to protect the brand, but there are other ways of getting around that problem, so I don't see why there's a need to pull the account. Raise your price to the supplier, and let them sell the item for no profit or a loss. Limit the available stock to them.




I'm wondering what other information we aren't privy to, because a half million dollar a year account is a LOT of money for a business to simply throw aside, even a multi-million dollar outfit like Oliva can't afford to go killing accounts left and right. "A penny here, nickle there, and soon you've lost a whole dollar" as the saying goes.

[neoflex]

I can understand why they would do this but my problem is that the manufacturers are more likely to pull an account due to the prices being to low but more often than not they will turn a blind eye to a vendor who is jacking the prices of their smokes. Perfect example is how many vendors get away with jacking the prices of Opus and Anejos but Fuente supposedly has a strict rule on this but day after day year after year we see it. Again just my .02.

[dunng]

MB3's! :eek:

[Volt]

I know it's a beat to death subject, but I can't say I find a ton of value as some do in a B&M. The 3 closest "cigar" stores are just that. Some accessories, moderate to over priced sticks, and none of the amenities that others seem to enjoy. In fairness, one does have a small coffee bar, but that has no appeal to me.

I do think that a person is as only good as their word and as such needs to stick by what they say they will do. Old fashioned maybe, but that's me. So Oliva pulling the contract, I guess good on them if they can stand teh loss of revenue. I tend to agree with Silound, business better be damn good to make up for it.

I personally shop where I get best bang for the buck. Might be at a B&M, Internet, a trade on CA, etc. Cigars are a hobby and as such cannot affect the household living, so it gets done with sharp buying as my other hobbies do. A B&M does not provide me any other benefit over any other source except the other sources typically have less attitude.

I have heard the argument about protecting the "brand" name with high prices and as of today still do not understand how pricing affects the brand name. Maybe one of you economics type can help a BOTL out adn explain it. I do not and have never found where just because an item was high priced it therefore had quality. Some items do cost more due to high quality, but they do not have to go hand in hand. I have a very small Mexican restaurant by my house, all the food is "home made", none of the frozen beans, etc. Amazing stuff. A great dinner for $6 - $7 is common. Beats the hell out of the chain store with the name and canned/frozen food at 30% more a plate.

Kind of rambled here a bit (need more coffee), but the bottom line for me is I don't get pricing and prolly never will regardless as to where it is sold from.

[TripleF]

from Yazzie:
Really, If I can get my V's at 1/2 price then that's a good deal for me. I'm not all that concerned with the B&M's


That's very selfish of you.

I, for one, am glad this can happen because it helps protect my job.


:tpd: :tpd: My thoughts exactly.

[Kreth]

I know it's a beat to death subject, but I can't say I find a ton of value as some do in a B&M. The 3 closest "cigar" stores are just that. Some accessories, moderate to over priced sticks, and none of the amenities that others seem to enjoy.
My local B&M is pretty much the same. Limited selection, high prices (I think an RP Vintage 90 was $10), and nothing in terms of accessories aside from a $2 cutter. I've heard that the owner keeps the place as a tax write-off.

[Legend]

Really, If I can get my V's at 1/2 price then that's a good deal for me. I'm not all that concerned with the B&M's

You should be concerned. There is a reason that these contracts exist and the cigar makers make cigars that are not to be sold on the internet. And its not that they feel sorry for the poor local B&M guy. Its financial. They need the locals to stay in business its a huge part of their revenue. I understand you personally probably have no local to go to or there is a bunch of a-hole snobs at your local. But prices would skyrocket or many makers would just fold without the locals.

[BengalMan]

While I don't know the first thing about this situation and will not comment on it, but I will shed some light on the situation in general, coming from someone that's in the industry.

Protecting the price of our product is done for various reasons. The one that has already been mentioned is, deeply discounting a cigar line, or any other line at that, does de-value the brand. Take a look at Bose. They are a price protected product. To sell Bose, you have to adhear to their price points. You can walk into a Best Buy, h.h Gregg, or anywhere that sells Bose, and the price will always be the same. Hell I used to work at an h.h.Gregg when I was in college. I could get discounts on EVERYTHING for myself and I could edit the price on any big screen TV I wanted to, in order to match or beat a competitors price with a few strokes of a button, except Bose. No discounts, no price cutting. Look at it like this, when you say Bose to most people, they think, premier, high end, high quality, and high priced surround sound. Now, what if I were to open a chain of "BengalMan's Electronics" across the nation, and sell Bose for HALF of what everyone else was selling it for in my store and online. After a while Bose would no longer have the prestige that it does, and because of that, why would people pay the suggested retail for it at any other store when they can buy it for half off at BengalMan's Electronics? That's a segway into the next, and most important reason that prices are protected.

Cigar shops are a culture in themselves. A majority of the brands that have "brand name recognition" were built in B&M's. They have been, and will continue to be the grassroots, lifeblood of this industry. They provide a place where customers can socialize, relax, and get away from the everyday troubles of life, and have a cigar with someone that they may have never met before, but share a close bond with. That bond is the cigar. When you have an online shop that deeply discounts products BELOW MSRP, if takes away from the places that put most of these brands where they are today. Some brands may not care about that, but I know we do.

The problem that lies in this whole situation is the state taxes and OTP. None of it is regulated, and it keeps going up. In Michigan for instance, it's 32% and they're talking about doubling it to a whopping 64%. Now, a Michigan B&M can do nothing but pay the state that tax and in turn roll it over to the consumer. What the people passing this legislation don't understand, is that if they make it too high, people will do just what some of you have said, stop buying at the B&M's and buy online, because when you ship out of state, you don't have to pay the state (that is already changing though, but that's a WHOLE NOTHER TOPIC). Thus resulting in hurting the local economies even more because more local business will close and more people will be out of work.

In the end, please support your local B&M's. Even if it's only a stick a week, or a few here and there. You'd be supprised how far those few additional sticks can go for them. It may be the difference in being able to pay their electric bill without going into the hole that month. The B&M's helped build the indusry that we all love so much, the least we could do is show our support to them in these times of the economic downturn. These are all people that help keep your local economy alive. So next time your about to order that 5er online, think, "maybe this time, I'll go to my local B&M, pick up 3-5 cigars, smoke one and have a chat with the customers and owner about the hobby I love so much."

Thanks for reading my long rant. I'm heading to a B&M to work. :ss

[elderboy02]

Nice post Ian :)

[Volt]

......Thanks for reading my long rant. I'm heading to a B&M to work. :ss

I was hoping you would chime in as you have the inside look. With all you said, some I agree with, some I'm not sold on just yet.... I would ask/comment that maybe in days of olde when all there was were the B&M's, I can see where they could have held a higher level of importance with availability, knowledge, etc.

In my case of 2 years of smoking cigars and what's around me.

a) Small walk in humi (say triple walk in closet size), the guy there barely speaks English, and is mostly a cigarette shop.

b) Nice size selection, nice discounts on singles, no real knowledge of cigars by the workers. Some accessories.

c) Small walk in humi, coffee bar, some polite help, some not so polite.

d) Large selection, small smoking lounge, friendly, good looking college help (but not knowledgeable on cigars), or crabby help I will not deal with.

Glad you brought up Bose, I was going to add it to my original post but wasn't aware if many knew their pricing. I can hear the diff in a Bose Acustimass system and a low end Pioneer. I have no issues paying for better quality items as I will pay more for a tastier smoke than a yard gar.

I can't rationalize though paying more for a cigar selling locally at $9.25 a Monte White Rothschild or $4.75 ea on a cbid auction. The taxes here just aren't that high to explain that much increase. Exact same cigar, 1/2 the price. Quality doesn't change and there is nor real value gained by supporting a brick and mortar.

Interesting topic.
I agree there are those who are name oriented (my ex brother in law is one), all they care is the name others will see on said product. I on the other hand only require X value for X $$$ paid.

[themoneycollector]

Good post.

After 2 warnings, this should get them to listen.

[Volusianator]

really, if i can get my v's at 1/2 price then that's a good deal for me. I'm not all that concerned with the b&m's

wow :(

[Cyanide]

Now, just for discussion sake....I would like to add a few "thoughts"

How would one presume the industry will be affected by:

1) Online forums such as this....where much of the "cigar socialization" is occuring

2) Smoking by-laws that prohibit the use of tobacco products in public places (including B&Ms)

3) Increasing taxation on physical B&M stock

4) the Economic Downturn and how it affects sales of luxery items

5) The frequent witness of poor conditions in B&Ms (now this is largely speculation....the last 3 B&Ms I was at [from a total of 5] had a majority of the product affected by mold.

I love the concept of market protectionism....I think everyone's livelihood should be protected. But, at some point, the "turning tide" should probably be addressed. Maybe the B&M will have to re-invent itself if it wants to survive. At some point, customers shouldn't be expected to bouy up a failing market paradigm in order to artificially resuscitate it....when a superior model, more in keeping with the new world reality, exists.

Just my 2 cents

(This post would work equally well in the current B&M vs Internet thread as well)

Cyanide

[TripleF]

While I don't know the first thing about this situation and will not comment on it, but I will shed some light on the situation in general, coming from someone that's in the industry.

Protecting the price of our product is done for various reasons. The one that has already been mentioned is, deeply discounting a cigar line, or any other line at that, does de-value the brand. Take a look at Bose. They are a price protected product. To sell Bose, you have to adhear to their price points. You can walk into a Best Buy, h.h Gregg, or anywhere that sells Bose, and the price will always be the same. Hell I used to work at an h.h.Gregg when I was in college. I could get discounts on EVERYTHING for myself and I could edit the price on any big screen TV I wanted to, in order to match or beat a competitors price with a few strokes of a button, except Bose. No discounts, no price cutting. Look at it like this, when you say Bose to most people, they think, premier, high end, high quality, and high priced surround sound. Now, what if I were to open a chain of "BengalMan's Electronics" across the nation, and sell Bose for HALF of what everyone else was selling it for in my store and online. After a while Bose would no longer have the prestige that it does, and because of that, why would people pay the suggested retail for it at any other store when they can buy it for half off at BengalMan's Electronics? That's a segway into the next, and most important reason that prices are protected.

Cigar shops are a culture in themselves. A majority of the brands that have "brand name recognition" were built in B&M's. They have been, and will continue to be the grassroots, lifeblood of this industry. They provide a place where customers can socialize, relax, and get away from the everyday troubles of life, and have a cigar with someone that they may have never met before, but share a close bond with. That bond is the cigar. When you have an online shop that deeply discounts products BELOW MSRP, if takes away from the places that put most of these brands where they are today. Some brands may not care about that, but I know we do.

The problem that lies in this whole situation is the state taxes and OTP. None of it is regulated, and it keeps going up. In Michigan for instance, it's 32% and they're talking about doubling it to a whopping 64%. Now, a Michigan B&M can do nothing but pay the state that tax and in turn roll it over to the consumer. What the people passing this legislation don't understand, is that if they make it too high, people will do just what some of you have said, stop buying at the B&M's and buy online, because when you ship out of state, you don't have to pay the state (that is already changing though, but that's a WHOLE NOTHER TOPIC). Thus resulting in hurting the local economies even more because more local business will close and more people will be out of work.

In the end, please support your local B&M's. Even if it's only a stick a week, or a few here and there. You'd be supprised how far those few additional sticks can go for them. It may be the difference in being able to pay their electric bill without going into the hole that month. The B&M's helped build the indusry that we all love so much, the least we could do is show our support to them in these times of the economic downturn. These are all people that help keep your local economy alive. So next time your about to order that 5er online, think, "maybe this time, I'll go to my local B&M, pick up 3-5 cigars, smoke one and have a chat with the customers and owner about the hobby I love so much."

Thanks for reading my long rant. I'm heading to a B&M to work. :ss


Here! Here! :tu

[mosesbotbol]

Rolex is a perfect example of protecting a brand by strict pricing; it's made them and their dealers a ton of money.

[Volusianator]

Quality doesn't change and there is nor real value gained by supporting a brick and mortar.

Remember that the next time you want to go to a lounge with a bunch of buddies, or by yourself to have a smoke and the shop is out of business because nobody saw the "value" in spending more at a B&M. I buy my fair share of cigars online, just like everyone else, but I also buy boxes from my local from time to time to do my part to help keep his doors open. I value his business, I value his leather chairs, I value his smoke eaters, I value the drinks I can get there, I value his service.

[uptown_isy]

That's very selfish of you.

I, for one, am glad this can happen because it helps protect my job.

And mine as well. Thanks NCRadioMan!

[Pat1075]

That's very selfish of you.

I, for one, am glad this can happen because it helps protect my job.

Here Here. Thank you.

[Drat]

Take a look at Bose. They are a price protected product. To sell Bose, you have to adhear to their price points. You can walk into a Best Buy, h.h Gregg, or anywhere that sells Bose, and the price will always be the same. Hell I used to work at an h.h.Gregg when I was in college. I could get discounts on EVERYTHING for myself and I could edit the price on any big screen TV I wanted to, in order to match or beat a competitors price with a few strokes of a button, except Bose. No discounts, no price cutting. Look at it like this, when you say Bose to most people, they think, premier, high end, high quality, and high priced surround sound. Now, what if I were to open a chain of "BengalMan's Electronics" across the nation, and sell Bose for HALF of what everyone else was selling it for in my store and online. After a while Bose would no longer have the prestige that it does, and because of that, why would people pay the suggested retail for it at any other store when they can buy it for half off at BengalMan's Electronics? That's a segway into the next, and most important reason that prices are protected.


I have to argue this. Bose is built upon reputation for high quality. The reduction of the price might marginally affect the impressions of that quality, but the quality itself will stand alone. In your scenario above, you would likely sell out every single piece you brought in quickly, every time, and the brand name would not suffer.

Of course, when applying the same thoughts to cigars, it holds much more merit. The taste of a cigar is very subjective (if you want proof, look at the reviews in the Silound's dog rocket thread on the NC review board). People often say that cigars are better when smoked at Herfs. The impression that a cigar is better due to price, emotional state when smoking, etc. has some serious validity. But I wouldn't say it was the defining aspect of makes a good cigar.

Just my $.02, carry on... :ss

[Yazzie]

Nothing wrong with your arguments for those who frequent a B&M or use their Services. Hell if I felt that way then I would not have made the statement I made.

Different strokes for different folks. :ss I have 2 good B&M's in my area and have bone and bought sticks at both. However I don't hang out there, and the few times I've asked if they would price match on a box for VSG's or Oliva V's they said they couldn't come close....So for me I buy online at much cheaper prices and am happy for it. Now if I was one who hung out at a B&M daily and looked at it as a place to smoke/socialize, etc... then maybe I would feel differently...

When you shop for an airplane flight, or a trip, or a hotel room, do you always buy from one place or one price or do you shop around a bit

[Silound]

I have to argue this. Bose is built upon reputation for high quality. The reduction of the price might marginally affect the impressions of that quality, but the quality itself will stand alone. In your scenario above, you would likely sell out every single piece you brought in quickly, every time, and the brand name would not suffer.

Of course, when applying the same thoughts to cigars, it holds much more merit. The taste of a cigar is very subjective (if you want proof, look at the reviews in the Silound's dog rocket thread on the NC review board). People often say that cigars are better when smoked at Herfs. The impression that a cigar is better due to price, emotional state when smoking, etc. has some serious validity. But I wouldn't say it was the defining aspect of makes a good cigar.

Just my $.02, carry on... :ss

Holy crap, I got a cross comment about that thread! :)


I agree about quality standing on it's own, and I agree that B&M's need support. But not everyone looks at quality. A HUGE number of shoppers (for cigars especially) buy high dollar assuming that it's quality because of the price. If a car costs 100,000 then it has to be a better vehicle than the one that costs 30,000 to them.

On the flip side, quality can command price, simply because there are people out there who will buy quality just for quality, regardless of the price.

Really it's about knowing your market demographic, and in a luxury market, it's all about those two extremes.

[mosesbotbol]

I think it was in poor taste to mention Mike's losing Olivia's cigars. Whose agenda is this serving? Like even mentioning this on a forum with a dollar amount attached to it was done in spite.

More than one way to see this. Perhaps if the cigars were better promoted by the manufacturer, discounting like they did would not be necessary? Perhaps Mike's was already planning on dumping Olivia's and Olivia's want to protect their image?

Don't know all the details, but this strikes me as a "vindictive press release".

[neoflex]

I used to frequent and support my local B&Ms back in NY but since moving I have been unable to find a B&M that I feel comfortable with or happy enough with to call home. Problem I have been having is I either get to choose from Great selection but snotty stuck up staff or great staff but a Mehh selection of smokes most of which are not part of my rotation and than their is the other where their humidor conditions are amazingly bad for the name backing of the place but they too have mostly an unwelcoming staff. So now I find myself buying more from online retailers but do miss being able to head down to my local and buy a handful of smokes and get lost there for 4-6 hours. I have always known I can get the same smokes online for much cheaper but when I had a great local I never did mind paying $2-$4 more per stick because in my mind it was worth it.

[Raralith]

Disreguarding B&M's, they were warned twice not to do it, and finally got dropped the third time. I'm sure Mike's had a reason too on why they dropped it.

I find it kind of comical that Oliva is there to protect his brand because Oliva is known for great cigars at low prices. I doubt that the brand would be in such high quantity that he'll either run out of have to lower his reject standards. And the MSRP is not Oliva's margin, his is probably set based on volume so whether the distributor makes $0.01 or $10.00 a stick, Oliva's already got his money.

[Volt]

You need to read my posts a bit more carefully, out of my choices only one really has a smoking lounge and the attitude there is not something I want to put up with to smoke there. I like a bourbon with my sticks and as most of my friends don't smoke cigars.... you see where I am going. As I stated, a B&M im most senses does not serve me (YMMV) any real service other than a spur of the moment buy... Even then not much due to pricing.

Remember that the next time you want to go to a lounge with a bunch of buddies, or by yourself to have a smoke and the shop is out of business because nobody saw the "value" in spending more at a B&M. I buy my fair share of cigars online, just like everyone else, but I also buy boxes from my local from time to time to do my part to help keep his doors open. I value his business, I value his leather chairs, I value his smoke eaters, I value the drinks I can get there, I value his service.

[Volusianator]

You need to read my posts a bit more carefully, out of my choices only one really has a smoking lounge and the attitude there is not something I want to put up with to smoke there. As I stated, a B&M im most senses does not serve me (YMMV) any real service other than a spur of the moment buy... Even then not much due to pricing.

I agree that I only read your one reply regarding the B&M's, however you said there's no value in supporting a Brick & Mortar. If you would've said there's no value in supporting "your local" B&M, then I would possibly understand if you have a bad shop. But to make a blanket statement as you did, I can't agree with that.

[Volusianator]

In addition, I've never bought a box of cigars online and met a new friend in the process. I've bought several boxes, singles and samplers and have met many new friends in that process at my local shop and shops that are not local, but I've stopped in on a whim. I know that supporting my local does that community well too. Next time you're on vacation and forget your cigars, see how fast an internet supplier can get your relaxation to you.

[Bruce]

I can understand why they would do this but my problem is that the manufacturers are more likely to pull an account due to the prices being to low but more often than not they will turn a blind eye to a vendor who is jacking the prices of their smokes. Perfect example is how many vendors get away with jacking the prices of Opus and Anejos but Fuente supposedly has a strict rule on this but day after day year after year we see it. Again just my .02.

Yes!
And Mikes was one of the biggest gougers when it came to Opus during the cigar boom.

[Yazzie]

You need to read my posts a bit more carefully, out of my choices only one really has a smoking lounge and the attitude there is not something I want to put up with to smoke there. I like a bourbon with my sticks and as most of my friends don't smoke cigars.... you see where I am going. As I stated, a B&M im most senses does not serve me (YMMV) any real service other than a spur of the moment buy... Even then not much due to pricing.

:tpd:

[yourchoice]

Kind of off subject but on topic...

My local B&M has an area to smoke, but you have to be a member and pay a significant membership fee to sit and smoke there. The balance of their floor plan consists of their humidor (quite nice), accessory displays and a cash register. Smoking there would generally be uncomfortable. Do I still patronize them? Yes. Do I feel guilty about buying on-line? No. Would I buy more (a higher percentage of my purchases) if they had a chair to sit in and a TV to catch a little bit of a game? You bet!

What's my point? I'm not sure. I guess every B&M is different and "deserves" patronage based on their customer service and amenities. When I was in Orlando and visited Corona cigar, I bought their cigars, drank their beer and enjoyed myself immensely. If all B&M's were like that I think we'd all feel more obligation to buy more from them. :2

[Commander Quan]

Perhaps a little off topic but...

Right now most of the shops that I visit where I live, in Ohio are changing the way they do business. I am seeing the opening of "private lounges" in shops that before the smoking ban passed had an area to smoke that was available for free. The membership fees vary but most have a monthly fee and a daily fee. The daily fee ranges from $5-$10. I have quit smoking there because of this extra expense and since I am not there as often I spend about 1/4 of the money that I used to on their cigars.

So what are my options? I either drive to the shop and pay $1-$2 or possibly more per cigar to support a local business that in my mind is charging people for a service that they offered for free 2 years ago
or
buy online and get an equal product for less?

I guess my loyalty to my local shops went away when they decide to try to make a quick buck off their regulars instead of using the smoking ban as an opportunity to welcome smokers and sell more product

[Yazzie]

Perhaps a little off topic but...

Right now most of the shops that I visit where I live, in Ohio are changing the way they do business. I am seeing the opening of "private lounges" in shops that before the smoking ban passed had an area to smoke that was available for free. The membership fees vary but most have a monthly fee and a daily fee. The daily fee ranges from $5-$10. I have quit smoking there because of this extra expense and since I am not there as often I spend about 1/4 of the money that I used to on their cigars.

So what are my options? I either drive to the shop and pay $1-$2 or possibly more per cigar to support a local business that in my mind is charging people for a service that they offered for free 2 years ago
or
buy online and get an equal product for less?

I guess my loyalty to my local shops went away when they decide to try to make a quick buck off their regulars instead of using the smoking ban as an opportunity to welcome smokers and sell more product

Agreed, it's a personal decision and you should feel no obligation whatsoever to support a B&M, just as those that frequent B&M's feel no obligation to support or buy from an internet retailer....

[Boomer]

I sell things manufactured by a name brand company. These items sell for anywhere from $35k to $250k. Although it is the leading brand in the industry, the marketplace dictates what that product will sell for based on quality, efficiency, aftermarket support and the reputation of the dealer. There are no artificial ways to make the consumer pay more (which this is all about) in my industry nor do I believe that there should be. The market should always dictate the price. :2

[MarkinAZ]

I know it's a beat to death subject, but I can't say I find a ton of value as some do in a B&M. The 3 closest "cigar" stores are just that. Some accessories, moderate to over priced sticks, and none of the amenities that others seem to enjoy. In fairness, one does have a small coffee bar, but that has no appeal to me.

I do think that a person is as only good as their word and as such needs to stick by what they say they will do. Old fashioned maybe, but that's me. So Oliva pulling the contract, I guess good on them if they can stand teh loss of revenue. I tend to agree with Silound, business better be damn good to make up for it.

I personally shop where I get best bang for the buck. Might be at a B&M, Internet, a trade on CA, etc. Cigars are a hobby and as such cannot affect the household living, so it gets done with sharp buying as my other hobbies do. A B&M does not provide me any other benefit over any other source except the other sources typically have less attitude.

I have heard the argument about protecting the "brand" name with high prices and as of today still do not understand how pricing affects the brand name. Maybe one of you economics type can help a BOTL out adn explain it. I do not and have never found where just because an item was high priced it therefore had quality. Some items do cost more due to high quality, but they do not have to go hand in hand. I have a very small Mexican restaurant by my house, all the food is "home made", none of the frozen beans, etc. Amazing stuff. A great dinner for $6 - $7 is common. Beats the hell out of the chain store with the name and canned/frozen food at 30% more a plate.

Kind of rambled here a bit (need more coffee), but the bottom line for me is I don't get pricing and prolly never will regardless as to where it is sold from.

Solid post Michael:tu

[neoflex]

Perhaps a little off topic but...

Right now most of the shops that I visit where I live, in Ohio are changing the way they do business. I am seeing the opening of "private lounges" in shops that before the smoking ban passed had an area to smoke that was available for free. The membership fees vary but most have a monthly fee and a daily fee. The daily fee ranges from $5-$10. I have quit smoking there because of this extra expense and since I am not there as often I spend about 1/4 of the money that I used to on their cigars.

So what are my options? I either drive to the shop and pay $1-$2 or possibly more per cigar to support a local business that in my mind is charging people for a service that they offered for free 2 years ago
or
buy online and get an equal product for less?

I guess my loyalty to my local shops went away when they decide to try to make a quick buck off their regulars instead of using the smoking ban as an opportunity to welcome smokers and sell more product

I can understand where you are coming from but at the same time you telling us of this trend may be a way for the B&Ms to make ends meet when smoking bans are put in place. Having a lounge may be the loop hole they need to keep it so their patrons can still smoke there or even may be a way to supplement lost revenue from the bans which may have caused business to drop. Most lounges but not all that I know of that are membership based will normally allow you to sit and enjoy your smokes there for free if you make purchases. I know of one that keeps their lounge behind closed doors and only allow paying members to enter. I can see your frustration since you used to be able to smoke there for free but can see both sides of the coin when you introduce public smoking bans especially if they are offering amenities that may not have been available prior to making it a full fledged lounge.

[ChasDen]

I sell things manufactured by a name brand company. These items sell for anywhere from $35k to $250k. Although it is the leading brand in the industry, the marketplace dictates what that product will sell for based on quality, efficiency, aftermarket support and the reputation of the dealer. There are no artificial ways to make the consumer pay more (which this is all about) in my industry nor do I believe that there should be. The market should always dictate the price. :2

I knew if I kept reading I might find an opinion I shared :tu

To me its no different than the wally world argument putting the mom and pops out of business. In the 3 county area I live there have been dozens of wally worlds built. Lots of small shops went out of business. MANY survived and the winner was the consumer. The ones who survived, changed their business model, lowered prices or offered unique services. Gave me a reason to shop there, and I continue to support those who deserve my business. I the consumer still have the right to choose where to spend my money. The cigar industry should be no different. As mentioned earlier. the Ohio smoking ban provided a golden opportunity for shops to change their philosophy, create lounges, install a few plasma tvs, heck just put in a vending machine and a few chairs. A few did and they are often full of chatty old fellas telling war stories and moaning about the wife. The others, raised their prices since traffic went down, and they spend the day dusting the shelf's and throwing out the moldy cigars.

Chas

[Silound]

Perhaps a little off topic but...

Right now most of the shops that I visit where I live, in Ohio are changing the way they do business. I am seeing the opening of "private lounges" in shops that before the smoking ban passed had an area to smoke that was available for free. The membership fees vary but most have a monthly fee and a daily fee. The daily fee ranges from $5-$10. I have quit smoking there because of this extra expense and since I am not there as often I spend about 1/4 of the money that I used to on their cigars.

So what are my options? I either drive to the shop and pay $1-$2 or possibly more per cigar to support a local business that in my mind is charging people for a service that they offered for free 2 years ago
or
buy online and get an equal product for less?

I guess my loyalty to my local shops went away when they decide to try to make a quick buck off their regulars instead of using the smoking ban as an opportunity to welcome smokers and sell more product

I'm a little rusty, but last I checked the Ohio smoking ban only exempts some tobacco shops, not all, correct?

If the ban affects the shops you frequent, I see the fee as a way to allow smoking to continue for the convenience of the patrons. If it doesn't affect the shops, then what else do they offer besides a "private" lounge for you to smoke in? There has to be something that few dollars is being invested into.

Just curious.

[Commander Quan]

Neoflex, perhaps they do need this extra income to make ends meat BUT, what if it had gone the other way. If they had kept the lounge open and advertised as a place that you can sit a smoke I think more people would be inclined to go there and smoke since we can't in bars, bowling allies, etc. and they would be buying more product at the same time. I know I am not alone in reducing my spending since implementing the "membership fee".

If I was allowed to enter with a minimum purchase perhaps I wouldn't be so torqued about the whole thing, but if you want to stay and smoke you pay the fee weather you buy a single or a box.

[Yazzie]

I knew if I kept reading I might find an opinion I shared :tu

To me its no different than the wally world argument putting the mom and pops out of business. In the 3 county area I live there have been dozens of wally worlds built. Lots of small shops went out of business. MANY survived and the winner was the consumer. The ones who survived, changed their business model, lowered prices or offered unique services. Gave me a reason to shop there, and I continue to support those who deserve my business. I the consumer still have the right to choose where to spend my money. The cigar industry should be no different. As mentioned earlier. the Ohio smoking ban provided a golden opportunity for shops to change their philosophy, create lounges, install a few plasma tvs, heck just put in a vending machine and a few chairs. A few did and they are often full of chatty old fellas telling war stories and moaning about the wife. The others, raised their prices since traffic went down, and they spend the day dusting the shelf's and throwing out the moldy cigars.

Chas


Great post Chas....:ss We as cigar Hobbyists are free to buy where we want at the prices we want and only we truly deem what value really is without any obligation to support an establishment just for the sake of supporting it.

[Commander Quan]

I'm a little rusty, but last I checked the Ohio smoking ban only exempts some tobacco shops, not all, correct?

If the ban affects the shops you frequent, I see the fee as a way to allow smoking to continue for the convenience of the patrons. If it doesn't affect the shops, then what else do they offer besides a "private" lounge for you to smoke in? There has to be something that few dollars is being invested into.

Just curious.

Any cigar shop that was in operation before the ban is grandfathered in as long as 80% if revenue is tobacco related. Post ban any shop that is in a free standing building can be smoked in, but not one that is in a strip mall or has adjoining businesses. The laws definition of a "private club" is a place where there are no employees. So this wouldn't fly in a cigar store.

[neoflex]

Neoflex, perhaps they do need this extra income to make ends meat BUT, what if it had gone the other way. If they had kept the lounge open and advertised as a place that you can sit a smoke I think more people would be inclined to go there and smoke since we can't in bars, bowling allies, etc. and they would be buying more product at the same time. I know I am not alone in reducing my spending since implementing the "membership fee".

If I was allowed to enter with a minimum purchase perhaps I wouldn't be so torqued about the whole thing, but if you want to stay and smoke you pay the fee weather you buy a single or a box.

Not saying it is right just that I can see both sides. I've always wanted to open my own B&M/Lounge but in reality that is highly unlikely unless I win Powerball.:r If I did I would do as I described above. Have a members only type lounge but would have a very low daily fee probrably in the range of $5 but if you stopped in and bought $15-$20+ worth of smokes would allow you to come in and join at no additional cost to you. I am at least hoping that these places added some amenities. If they kept things as is and just imposed a membership fee than that is just wrong IMHO. If they added a separate section with private storage lockers, Flat screen TVs, upgraded seating etc etc than that would be at least be understandable. If you were a regular and they just shunned you for not joining than that too is just wrong.

[dogsplayinpoker]

Don't know about the rest of ya'll but my bank account is getting smaller and my tobacco money is miniscule. If I can get better prices by ordering online, that's what I do. I enjoy a herf now and again but I'll be damned if I will hang out in a place that requires me to pay a membership so that I can pay double the price for a smoke.
My front porch does just fine and the chairs already have my butt groove.
My local B&Ms are pretty high in regards to price. One won't carry Padrons or Fuentes so they're out. Another has some very annoying staff. The final one has a very limited selection, cigars and pipe tobacco, and are pricey. So what's the draw?

[ChasDen]

Any cigar shop that was in operation before the ban is grandfathered in as long as 80% if revenue is tobacco related. Post ban any shop that is in a free standing building can be smoked in, but not one that is in a strip mall or has adjoining businesses. The laws definition of a "private club" is a place where there are no employees. So this wouldn't fly in a cigar store.

I believe your right, but I was at a newer shop the other day in a strip shopping center, (I know they were not there before the ban) and they were smoking in there :confused:

I did buy a cigar from them because it was a nice shop and the lady actually made me laugh a few times. She said fire it up and let me know what you think. I said you sure you can be smoking in here and she replied smoke away.

So I did :D

Chas

[SeanGAR]

So let me get this straight.

Olivia thinks Mike's sells their cigars to customers too cheaply? So where is the problem? Olivia not know we're in a recession? Like a lot of people my raise this year is a big fat zero, but I'm not complaining, at least I have a job. Real estate taxes are up. Food prices are up. Beer is up. Gas is up. Health insurance cost up, benefits down ... and on and on.

And Olivia pulls somebody's account because I can get their cigars cheaper at that vendor? Most of the V prices there are MSRP minus 10%. I ask again, where is the problem? There is no competition whatsoever between my local B&M and Mike's. I buy singles and odd items at my B&M because I like to support them. If I buy a box online, I price shop and get it the cheapest place that has what I want in stock.

All Olivia is doing is making people pay more for cigars. Good job *ss****s.

[greenwit]

I don't find Mike to be very competitive these days....I don't buy his sticks as CI/Famous/Atlantic all offer better prices pretty consistently. And it seems his deals consist of a free five pack or free ashtray or lighter....and/or unappealing cigars.

[RevSmoke]

For me to find a B&M in which I can smoke, I must drive an hour. Usually, when I go to them, I am piggy-backing a stop there onto my hospital visits. I'd love to sit down for a smoke, but I usually stop in - browse a bit - pick up a couple sticks and if I am lucky, spend a few minutes in conversation.

Locally, the only places tha have cigars are Book World stores, not the happenin' place for grand selection, and smoking is verbotten.

I must say, I miss the B&Ms I had in Connecticut. There were a few nearby where I'd come and melt into a chair and enjoy a nice stick.

Personally, I wish my disposable income were greater so I could support them better when I get there.

So, for me, most of my purchases are internet based.

[Volusianator]

So, for me, most of my purchases are internet based.

However I'm glad they weren't on Tuesday!

[rrplasencia]

I buy from both internet and b&m. Have a good relationship with b&m, they treat me very well. They'll sell me an entire box of opus at msrp. The owner has told me if i see a good price on the web to let him know, he'll see if he can match or come close. If they can come close i'd rather give them the business. If he can't he'll tell me it's a hell of a deal and to grab it. It's a couple blocks from work and a nice refuge at times. They know what i like, they know not to waste my time with crap. They in return support my restaurant when they can.

[Silound]

I buy from both internet and b&m. Have a good relationship with b&m, they treat me very well. They'll sell me an entire box of opus at msrp. The owner has told me if i see a good price on the web to let him know, he'll see if he can match or come close. If they can come close i'd rather give them the business. If he can't he'll tell me it's a hell of a deal and to grab it. It's a couple blocks from work and a nice refuge at times. They know what i like, they know not to waste my time with crap. They in return support my restaurant when they can.

:tpd:

That's exactly what I strive for where I work. Making sure people feel like I'm going the mile for them, because it brings back business to me. Regular return business is how B&M's stay alive, it's an absolute must have.

[Volusianator]

I buy from both internet and b&m. Have a good relationship with b&m, they treat me very well. They'll sell me an entire box of opus at msrp. The owner has told me if i see a good price on the web to let him know, he'll see if he can match or come close. If they can come close i'd rather give them the business. If he can't he'll tell me it's a hell of a deal and to grab it. It's a couple blocks from work and a nice refuge at times. They know what i like, they know not to waste my time with crap. They in return support my restaurant when they can.

:tu :chr

And he sells boxes of Opus at MSRP, you GOTTA love that shop!

[Volt]

Solid post Michael:tu



I made sense... Now your scaring me..... Thanks.

[Volt]

We have a lot of cigar makers, shop owners, cigar reps here at CA. I would hope they take some of the comments in this thread and others and pass it on to other peeps in the industry. Maybe BI (before Internet) there was a way of life and BR (before resession) there was a lot more money, but things have changed.

I try to smoke 3 - 7 cigars a week, depends on my schedule. Even before the pay cut I took 2 weeks ago (I am very thankful to have my job) paying a cover charge to burn one would not happen. Unless they are looking for the really rich, Average Joe doesn't have it. Where I will spend the $5 on a cigar possibly or a nick nack, I'm sitting on the porch before a cover charge.

Let me smoke what I bring, not some 70% or greater soggy lump of tobacco forced sale to smoke there. Even as a fairly noob person I keep my sticks better than people who have been in the biz for years. I know not to mooch, no sweat to the shop, some of your stock is leaving if I smoke there.

I understand taxes, insurance, rent, etc. But the prices have got to be somewhere close to the compitition. Get real or get gone because even the rich types are starting to pinch pennies, well they prolly pinch quarters.

As I noted earlier, I'm not all that for a B&M but not really against them in principle either. Offer me someting for the extra $$$ you need/want to charge, knowledge, good attitude, a better price, a reasonable place to smoke , wings and babes, etc. I guess if folks see value in the B&Ms I would like them to survive, but as of today they don't offer any value to me. Best 2 places I smoke are the American Legion (can't beat the prices there and everyone knows my name) and out in town Bailey's. Sort of an up scale pub type place. Decent food, the air in the resturant is 100% filtered 8 times an hour, pool tables, some video games, only downside is the staff service sucks, but no place is perfect. They even sell a few cigars in a wall humi if you need an extra. A wee bit high but not really gouging. Well, there is one other place but JK and I hit up, a biker dive, but most would not care to visit :)

My .02 and not even worth all that much now days.

[opus]

So let me get this straight.

Olivia thinks Mike's sells their cigars to customers too cheaply? So where is the problem? Olivia not know we're in a recession? Like a lot of people my raise this year is a big fat zero, but I'm not complaining, at least I have a job. Real estate taxes are up. Food prices are up. Beer is up. Gas is up. Health insurance cost up, benefits down ... and on and on.

And Olivia pulls somebody's account because I can get their cigars cheaper at that vendor? Most of the V prices there are MSRP minus 10%. I ask again, where is the problem? There is no competition whatsoever between my local B&M and Mike's. I buy singles and odd items at my B&M because I like to support them. If I buy a box online, I price shop and get it the cheapest place that has what I want in stock.

All Olivia is doing is making people pay more for cigars. Good job *ss****s.

:tpd: I couldn't say it any better than this Sean. Definitely a place for both online and B&M cigars. +

As far as Bose speakers, Rolex, etc, I am not a fan of price fixing. Let a product stand on it's quality and the selling company's service.

[BengalMan]

Guys, your not understanding the fact of state OTP. This is the reason that there is a huge price difference. Take Michigan for example. The state OTP is 32% (there are PLENTY of states that it's higher, much higher). So if a shop buys a box for $100, they immediately at the end of the month, are into the state for $32. So if they keystone the box to $200 (which would be msrp of said box), add the tax, the box is $232 per box. It's impossible for a retailer to go in the hole $32, then take another 10% off MSRP to compete with a major online retailer. Online retailers are for the most part in non-tax states like FL. If they are in a taxed state, they can get around paying the tax if they ship the box out of state, which most of them do. The price difference you see from online shops to local B&M's is due to your home state's legislature, plain and simple. Sure there may be a gouger here and there, but the main price difference is from the state's OTP.

And Sean, please don't just key Oliva as the bad guy, you'd be surprised how many of your favorite cigar manufacturers do the exact same thing in price protecting their brand. I have yet to have a shop in my territory complain to me, or any other rep I know that work for other manufacturers that this is done. Infact, it's just the opposite. Retailers are happy that measures like this are taken by manufactuers to help keep the business coming in.

I will say this though, if you had to pay your states tax on purchases that you bought online and had shipped to you, I think a lot of thoughts may change. It's already happening in small doses, and is a reality in the future. State's see that they're losing tax dollars due to online sales and there is a union of states that have begun getting records and collecting said taxes.

Listen, like I said, I don't know the details of the Mike's situation and it's not my place to comment on it. In the end, some of you are going to support the online shops exclusively, and that's your decision. Some are going to support local B&M's where they see fit and that's their choice. Some may do both, by all means, do what you like. I'm not telling people to go into a place they don't like, or a place where they are treated inferior, or anything of the sort. All I'm saying is if your local B&M is a nice guy, sells a quality product, and provides a service that applies to you, throw him a bone every once in a while. If not, it's your money, and if your going to shop online, there's nothing I can say to stop you.

I'm really busy for the next few days so I doubt I'll be able to check the thread. In the end, I really do acknowledge everyone's opinion's on here and will definitely make note of them, both positive and negative, and bring attention to it to the powers above me so that your opinions are heard. The cigar message boards are a great way for the manufacturers and end users to stay in a two way communication.

[Legend]

Seangar

Oliva pulled mikes account because he violated his contract. You can't reformat the reason to make it sound stupid to try to make your case. Well I guess you can, because you did. But you now what I mean.

Oliva is making a business decision. First you have to say to yourself. Ok they are not morons. They run a multi-million dollar company. They must have good reasons to have these clauses in their contracts with sellers. I won't repeat them all here but they are listed in the post. Value of cigar. Local shops etc. Etc.

[SeanGAR]

Seangar

Oliva pulled mikes account because he violated his contract.

I haven't read Mike's contract with Olivia .... have you?

You can't reformat the reason to make it sound stupid to try to make your case. Well I guess you can, because you did. But you now what I mean.

Sound stupid? This is about Olivia wanting price fixing and non-competitive selling of their cigars. I disagree with this completely.

Oliva is making a business decision. First you have to say to yourself. Ok they are not morons. They run a multi-million dollar company.

I would absolutely NOT say that. I have not met the Olivias to say one way or the other. However, idiotic business decisions are made all over this country on a daily basis. Can you say "New Coke?".

They must have good reasons to have these clauses in their contracts with sellers. I won't repeat them all here but they are listed in the post. Value of cigar. Local shops etc. Etc.

Some competitor squealed on Mike's and complained that they were undercutting their price. I prefer capitalism and competition in the marketplace, not communistic pricing practices. I won't buy more Olivias as a result of this, but I doubt that will make a dime's difference in their bottom line. I really don't care, it is the principle.

[renton20]

Take this with a grain of salt as I am not a business major and know very little if anything about the legality of price fixing, and or what would qualify as price fixing.

I only have two words to say about this, Rocky Patel. He not only let the competition flourish, he encouraged it. Now most people here I think will agree that his cigars have suffered in quality over the years and many, including myself, will agree that at least on the vintage line he has tweaked his blends for the worse. Now anyone who knows anything about internet sales knows that you can find OWR for about half of MSRP or less online. So tell me, why would you pay anything close to MSRP at a B&M for the same cigar? A few dollars is one thing but I personally would feel like I was throwing my money down the toilet if I did this. Even if I did really have a craving for one, enough so to pay over MSRP including taxes, I would never buy more than one. This seems to have drastically hurt his business long term. I know that personally I only have a few of his blends that I still enjoy and even then I would never pay MSRP for them.

If closing out this account and trying to get retailers to sell close to MSRP will keep oliva producing high quality delicious cigars than I feel like I can't complain too much. On top of that, Oliva cigars are well known and well liked because they are consistently good and very reasonably priced. As far as price fixing goes, they are trying to protect their business model long term. May not be something that I would necessarily do but IMHO they do have the right to do what they please with their company.

p.s. thanks for reading my probably unnecessarily long post;)

[croatan]

Two words. MONSTER CABLE. :r

:r :r :r

Exactly!

Thank god for monoprice.com :D

[Texan in Mexico]

Spot on Ian, it is very difficult for most of us to remove the emotional aspect of this argument however your point is the key to all of this.

Ladies and gentlemen this is whatis at the core of the risk the local B&Ms face these days.

Try running a business with the associated overhead and pay 20 to 40% in taxes vs the guy who doesn't incur the same fixed costs and is immune to the taxes, this is not the invisible hand of economics at work here, this is the 800 lb gorilla sitting in the living room...


Guys, your not understanding the fact of state OTP. This is the reason that there is a huge price difference. Take Michigan for example. The state OTP is 32% (there are PLENTY of states that it's higher, much higher). So if a shop buys a box for $100, they immediately at the end of the month, are into the state for $32. So if they keystone the box to $200 (which would be msrp of said box), add the tax, the box is $232 per box. It's impossible for a retailer to go in the hole $32, then take another 10% off MSRP to compete with a major online retailer. Online retailers are for the most part in non-tax states like FL. If they are in a taxed state, they can get around paying the tax if they ship the box out of state, which most of them do. The price difference you see from online shops to local B&M's is due to your home state's legislature, plain and simple. Sure there may be a gouger here and there, but the main price difference is from the state's OTP.

And Sean, please don't just key Oliva as the bad guy, you'd be surprised how many of your favorite cigar manufacturers do the exact same thing in price protecting their brand. I have yet to have a shop in my territory complain to me, or any other rep I know that work for other manufacturers that this is done. Infact, it's just the opposite. Retailers are happy that measures like this are taken by manufactuers to help keep the business coming in.

I will say this though, if you had to pay your states tax on purchases that you bought online and had shipped to you, I think a lot of thoughts may change. It's already happening in small doses, and is a reality in the future. State's see that they're losing tax dollars due to online sales and there is a union of states that have begun getting records and collecting said taxes.

Listen, like I said, I don't know the details of the Mike's situation and it's not my place to comment on it. In the end, some of you are going to support the online shops exclusively, and that's your decision. Some are going to support local B&M's where they see fit and that's their choice. Some may do both, by all means, do what you like. I'm not telling people to go into a place they don't like, or a place where they are treated inferior, or anything of the sort. All I'm saying is if your local B&M is a nice guy, sells a quality product, and provides a service that applies to you, throw him a bone every once in a while. If not, it's your money, and if your going to shop online, there's nothing I can say to stop you.

I'm really busy for the next few days so I doubt I'll be able to check the thread. In the end, I really do acknowledge everyone's opinion's on here and will definitely make note of them, both positive and negative, and bring attention to it to the powers above me so that your opinions are heard. The cigar message boards are a great way for the manufacturers and end users to stay in a two way communication.

[AD720]

I can also say that I will usually go for an Internet sale over my local B&M's.

Out of the ones that are conveniently local to me I have these style shops:

A) The shop with the killer selection but condescending staff. (I was so mistreated recently by one that I refuse to support them even though they have all the cool high-end stuff, I'll smoke black and milds before I patronize them.)

B) The little Mom and Pop with the nice staff but poor selection and/or poor storage conditions.

C) The hole in the wall "Tobacco Emporium" that does more business in rolling papers and Camels than premium cigars.

None of them offer me any extra value for the extra money spent. None have any "lounge" to speak of (one has a "member's area" :rolleyes:).

There are some that are on the other side of the city or in the burbs that are nice, one has an excellent lounge area and one has a really great coffee bar. Another that I used to frequent and spend quite a bit of cash in closed up. And if I am in the area I will swing in and always buy at least one stick. But they are just too far away to frequent.

[Texan in Mexico]

I would absolutely NOT say that. I have not met the Olivias to say one way or the other. However, idiotic business decisions are made all over this country on a daily basis. Can you say "New Coke?".

I don't mean to get off topic but a big part of what I do is market research, campaigns and the New Coke idea is generally recognized as one of the greatest marketing coups of all time. Easily one of the Top 10.

[Legend]

I haven't read Mike's contract with Olivia .... have you?



Sound stupid? This is about Olivia wanting price fixing and non-competitive selling of their cigars. I disagree with this completely.



I would absolutely NOT say that. I have not met the Olivias to say one way or the other. However, idiotic business decisions are made all over this country on a daily basis. Can you say "New Coke?".



Some competitor squealed on Mike's and complained that they were undercutting their price. I prefer capitalism and competition in the marketplace, not communistic pricing practices. I won't buy more Olivias as a result of this, but I doubt that will make a dime's difference in their bottom line. I really don't care, it is the principle.

I stand corrected. You are much smarter than the guys at oliva, they are stupid, you have considered every possible business situation. Forgive my Impertinence, I will no longer doubt you.

[Legend]

Some competitor squealed on Mike's and complained that they were undercutting their price. I prefer capitalism and competition in the marketplace, not communistic pricing practices. I won't buy more Olivias as a result of this, but I doubt that will make a dime's difference in their bottom line. I really don't care, it is the principle.

Oliva is practicing free market capitalism. Choosing who they sell to and how their product is marketed. Sorry to doubt you again, but check your definitions of communism

[pnoon]

I haven't read Mike's contract with Olivia .... have you?



Sound stupid? This is about Olivia wanting price fixing and non-competitive selling of their cigars. I disagree with this completely.



I would absolutely NOT say that. I have not met the Olivias to say one way or the other. However, idiotic business decisions are made all over this country on a daily basis. Can you say "New Coke?".



Some competitor squealed on Mike's and complained that they were undercutting their price. I prefer capitalism and competition in the marketplace, not communistic pricing practices. I won't buy more Olivias as a result of this, but I doubt that will make a dime's difference in their bottom line. I really don't care, it is the principle.

I stand corrected. You are much smarter than the guys at oliva, they are stupid, you have considered every possible business situation. Forgive my Impertinence, I will no longer doubt you.


SeanGar's response is arguing ideas and stating his point of view.
Your reply is personal.

Let's keep the personal insults out of this.

[rizzle]

Funny thing...late yesterday afternoon while sitting on my back deck, I was smoking an Oliva Master Blend, listening to music which was coming at me through my Bose outdoor speakers, when I looked at my Rolex to see how long I had been sitting there absolutley enjoying myself. Life was pretty damn good.

I only wish I had known how much of a complete jackass I was for thinking I had anything worth owning. Thank you all for straightening me out. I knew I came to this place for a reason.

:sleep:

[Volusianator]

I'm just amazed how many people here are anti-B&M.

[SeanGAR]

I stand corrected. You are much smarter than the guys at oliva, they are stupid, you have considered every possible business situation. Forgive my Impertinence, I will no longer doubt you.

Read my blasted post and stop trying to put words into my mouth.

I have not met the Olivias to say one way or the other.

[ChasDen]

I'm just amazed how many people here are anti-B&M.

I don't think its "Anti-B&M".

I for one just need a good reason to support any business, smoke shops are no different than groceries, cars or furniture. Price is always considered but not always the determining factor.

I bought my last car from a dealer who offered me value for the added price over dealer "A".

Chas

[Volt]

I'm just amazed how many people here are anti-B&M.

Wade, I think I read in one of your posts that you may work at a B&M, and I know FFF spends time at one. I can't say I hate them, just have no use for one in my world as they stand in my area. As a business/business model they don't offer me any service other than a quick cigar pick up that I can use. While I have had some issues with treatment, it was not the norm.

On the other hand, it is the business's responsibility to know and provide what the customer base wants, other wise why be in business? One example, most people want fast, cheap, clean shopping, Walmart provides that to the masses that have those needs. Most likely if there was a B&M that provided what I thought would make a good one, I would frequent it.

I am a bit amazed as you have indicated that so many others are not as happy as well for what ever reason with B&Ms. Sort of thought I was in the minority at first. A lot of people here definitely don't seem to be happy with what's available to them in their areas. Threads like this are good IMO. People who work in the industry can see what trend, feelings, etc may be out there and react to it.

My perfect B&M :ss:

1. Allow bourbon, either club style with my name on the bottle or sell it. ABC rules being what they are, maybe not a possibility, but a few here have mentioned drinks in their B&Ms.
2. A price I can afford to buy your stock. I'll pay more for perceived value.
3. Good chow at the B&M or walking distance near by.
4. No wet cigars.
5. Be knowledgeable about your stock/hobby for I am not.
6. Be like Hooters - Be happy I came to your establishment, dump the elitist or snoby rich hobby attitudes.
7. We have good manners here and can teach others. Allow outside smokes, we're still gonna buy from you. Support Herfing. I give someone a Oliva G, they like it, walk over to the counter and buy 3 more. Win - Win.

Maybe a dream list, but for me this would be a B&M to visit.

[doctorcue]

Funny thing...late yesterday afternoon while sitting on my back deck, I was smoking an Oliva Master Blend, listening to music which was coming at me through my Bose outdoor speakers, when I looked at my Rolex to see how long I had been sitting there absolutley enjoying myself. Life was pretty damn good.

I only wish I had known how much of a complete jackass I was for thinking I had anything worth owning. Thank you all for straightening me out. I knew I came to this place for a reason.

:sleep:

HAHAHAH... that is hilarious! RG bump!

[ronhoffman2]

Maybe a dream list, but for me this would be a B&M to visit.

You forgot the strippers.

[Volt]

You forgot the strippers.

I am "trying" to keep my cost down :dance:

But if you insist, they are ok with me. i don't mind helping the college girls pay a little tuition. :r

[Raralith]

I don't think its "Anti-B&M".

I for one just need a good reason to support any business, smoke shops are no different than groceries, cars or furniture. Price is always considered but not always the determining factor.

I bought my last car from a dealer who offered me value for the added price over dealer "A".

Chas

Exactly. I rarely buy from B&M's, and one of the reasons why is not just price, but what any business has to offer. I never understood why most B&M's try to focus on the price point of their product when you can easily and readily get it over the internet. This is an uphill battle, and one you probably will not win. What gets customers in is that extra service, that something unique that you can't get anywhere else. If one of my local B&M's had scotch, a tip jar, and decent prices, I would be there at least 3 times a week. But instead they have no booze, and the prices are outragous, even with our already high state tabacoo taxes. Volt made a good list, and if a B&M near me had these, I wouldn't mind being a patron there. But most B&M's don't, and instead of improving service, I meet owners and employees that grumble, give me the stink eye, and be general snobs and asses. If you work at a B&M or know a B&M that has these traits, don't blame the customer base for not going to you, blame yourselves for not providing the right services.

[Volusianator]

My perfect B&M :ss:

1. Allow bourbon, either club style with my name on the bottle or sell it. ABC rules being what they are, maybe not a possibility, but a few here have mentioned drinks in their B&Ms.
2. A price I can afford to buy your stock. I'll pay more for perceived value.
3. Good chow at the B&M or walking distance near by.
4. No wet cigars.
5. Be knowledgeable about your stock/hobby for I am not.
6. Be like Hooters - Be happy I came to your establishment, dump the elitist or snoby rich hobby attitudes.
7. We have good manners here and can teach others. Allow outside smokes, we're still gonna buy from you. Support Herfing. I give someone a Oliva G, they like it, walk over to the counter and buy 3 more. Win - Win.

Maybe a dream list, but for me this would be a B&M to visit.

Yeah, I work a day a week at a cigar shop 40 miles from my home, although honestly, that's really not the driving force behind my thoughts on the process. I don't think your list above is at all a "dream" as it surprises me that all are not that way. Other than we don't do food nor allow food carry ins, we do have a great number of restaurants very close by. We DO allow carry in cigars and will never change that policy.

1) we have a very well stocked bar of beer and alcohol
2) No doubt we're more expensive than the internet, but state taxes suck, we all know that. Nor can we buy at their volume.
3) Already covered above.
4) Our humidor is ALWAYS between 64-70%
5) We all are, very much so.
6) Our lounge is very laid back yet comfortable. We have several rooms to accommodate different groups, HDTV, DVD players, music, and microwave for our customers. My customers are college kids, traveling business men/women, tourists, and of course a large contingency of regulars.
7) You're always welcome to bring in your own smokes and banter back and forth with other guests. We do appreciate a purchase in our store before you leave as well, for if everyone just smoked what they brought in, we couldn't pay the bills and the doors would close for good. Then we lose that great atmosphere that we've provided for our guests.

I'm truly sorry that some of you don't have great B&M's that are local for you. We're the only one within 50 miles of us, yet have several in Milwaukee that we go to regularly just to bring a bunch of guys and have a herf and spread the wealth around a bit. B&M's are also very active in WI in fighting statewide no smoking bans.

[jpan]

I think there is another element to this discussion that has not really been touched upon yet. We cannot directly compare the tobacco industry and it's business models to others. Stereo speakers, watches, and other consumer products all go to market in similar ways, but they do not have the added pressure of direct government regulations and laws trying to stifle the use of their products, or the extra "sin taxes" being thrown at them from all directions. Outside forces are trying to reduce the use of a legal product, and are also taking advantage of a smaller less popular industry with added taxes. In Pittsburgh we are fortunate to have a few very good B&M's. For those of you who do not have the opportunity to frequent a top notch B&M, it's too bad. They are still part of the life line of this industry. Sure, there are good ones and bad ones, and they will thrive or fail with market forces, but to discount the viability of their presence in the industry is short sighted. We collectively need to do everything we can to support all facets of this industry, because eventually there may be nothing left. They are a physical presence of our right to smoke a legal product. There are places trying to prohibit smoking outdoors. Where will it end. I am not promoting shopping at shi$$y B&M's, but I am saying we need to help keep the good ones flourishing. They are the last stand in some states for having a place to smoke in public with other BOTL's. Now, as to the B&M's themselves, many of them also need to get their sh$t together and take a little pride in what they are doing, because we need them. :tu

[SeanGAR]

I don't mean to get off topic but a big part of what I do is market research, campaigns and the New Coke idea is generally recognized as one of the greatest marketing coups of all time. Easily one of the Top 10.

How so?

[BigAsh]

Funny thing...late yesterday afternoon while sitting on my back deck, I was smoking an Oliva Master Blend, listening to music which was coming at me through my Bose outdoor speakers, when I looked at my Rolex to see how long I had been sitting there absolutley enjoying myself. Life was pretty damn good.

I only wish I had known how much of a complete jackass I was for thinking I had anything worth owning. Thank you all for straightening me out. I knew I came to this place for a reason.

:sleep:

Outstanding!....made the previous 4 pages more enjoyable.....:r

[jaycarla]

Thank god for monoprice.com :D

THANK YOU! I have been in a week long mental lockdown of the site. Bookmarked now. Geez.

As for this topic. I like the thread, has brought out many good points and educated me along the way.

My only addition to this is that it is great to have a site where a topic like this can go on for 100 posts and not turn into WWIII. So far anyway.:r

Just some random ramblings from another Oliva Whore.

[Pat1075]

Just a quick point to all those calling this price fixing it is not. Price fixing is an illegal practice which occurs when two or more businesses in an area who are in a similar trade like cigars decide they will sell the same product for the same price. So if shop A decided they would sell Oliva G for 5.60 a piece this week so would shop B. then over the weekend the owners of shops A and B would meet and decide the would raise the price of oliva G to an even 6.00 on monday. it would work the same way with price drops too. That would be price fixing. Thats all thank you.

[Texan in Mexico]

How so?

I don't want to divert this thread but basically - there is great debate as to whether this was done as a true shift in ideaology for a market leader or to generate fervor in the market.

Honestly we will probably never know, even Robert Goizurta has given contradictory accounts of the build up to its launch, many feel this was done purposely, and unfortunately he succumbed to lung cancer in 97.

My belief is that it was a weighed risk that perhaps didn't fulfill its potential but did create such a fuss that he we are talking about it on a Cigar Forum more than 20 years later.

It is an incredible case study. There is much more to it and I'd be thrilled to point you in the direction of some support material and you let me know what you think!

Thanks for your reply.

Travis

[croatan]

Just a quick point to all those calling this price fixing it is not.

Correct. This is a vertical price restraint. For many years, courts looked very unfavorably on them, but they've recently been analyzed under the rule of reason.

[SeanGAR]

I don't want to divert this thread but basically - there is great debate as to whether this was done as a true shift in ideaology for a market leader or to generate fervor in the market.

Honestly we will probably never know, even Robert Goizurta has given contradictory accounts of the build up to its launch, many feel this was done purposely, and unfortunately he succumbed to lung cancer in 97.

My belief is that it was a weighed risk that perhaps didn't fulfill its potential but did create such a fuss that he we are talking about it on a Cigar Forum more than 20 years later.

It is an incredible case study. There is much more to it and I'd be thrilled to point you in the direction of some support material and you let me know what you think!

Thanks for your reply.

Travis

Travis,

Interesting there can be different ways to interpret what happened. I was in my PhD in Food Science in 1985 so was paying attention to this and a few years later have spoken to a student's father who was a VP in coke at that time. Looked to me (based on what I've read and heard) to be a top down decision that was based on flawed interpretation of sensory testing and market dynamics. I don't drink pop so I was largely insulated from what happened in the marketplace once they announced they were changing the formulation, but I do remember fellow students going nuts to buy a lifetime supply of the old stuff. At the time, I was more interested in ensuring a supply of J. Lohr Gamay Beaujolais and Caymus Cabernet.

Shoot me a PM with some info or links if you would. I'd be interested in another viewpoint of what happened.

/Sean

[taltos]

Correct. This is a vertical price restraint. For many years, courts looked very unfavorably on them, but they've recently been analyzed under the rule of reason.This seems to be very similar to the Fair Trade Pricing on sporting equipment such as guns and fishing rods and reels back in the '50's and'60's.

[jaymz]

Some competitor squealed on Mike's and complained that they were undercutting their price. I prefer capitalism and competition in the marketplace, not communistic pricing practices. I won't buy more Olivias as a result of this, but I doubt that will make a dime's difference in their bottom line. I really don't care, it is the principle.

What is good for the consumer and the economy is that companies obey the contractual agreements that they are legally bound by. In a capitalist system, Oliva has the right to sell their products at the price they determine is good for their company. They also have the right to require certain concessions be made by the retailer carrying their wares. The retailer also has the right to not agree to those terms, and refuse to stock Oliva's product. If what the OP said is true, Matt's Cigars got caught violating a legal contract multiple times and got slapped on the wrist for it. This was dishonest business practice and should be discouraged. If a company is willing to defraud a company as large as Oliva, how honest do you believe they will be in their dealings with you as a customer. I as a customer will be thinking twice about purchasing anything from Mike's Cigars in the future.


(FYI - in a communist system, the state would own both the cigar manufacturer *and* the retail outlet, and the employees would receive whatever money the government felt like doling out to them)

[Nimbus]

Good deal too!

:tpd: I am tempted to pull the trigger, but I must have some self control! :(

[Legend]

What is good for the consumer and the economy is that companies obey the contractual agreements that they are legally bound by. In a capitalist system, Oliva has the right to sell their products at the price they determine is good for their company. They also have the right to require certain concessions be made by the retailer carrying their wares. The retailer also has the right to not agree to those terms, and refuse to stock Oliva's product. If what the OP said is true, Matt's Cigars got caught violating a legal contract multiple times and got slapped on the wrist for it. This was dishonest business practice and should be discouraged. If a company is willing to defraud a company as large as Oliva, how honest do you believe they will be in their dealings with you as a customer. I as a customer will be thinking twice about purchasing anything from Mike's Cigars in the future.


(FYI - in a communist system, the state would own both the cigar manufacturer *and* the retail outlet, and the employees would receive whatever money the government felt like doling out to them)

What I was saying just much better. Well said. People seem to have forgotten what free market is and that our nation was once the place where it happened.

[ChasDen]

Just a quick point to all those calling this price fixing it is not. Price fixing is an illegal practice which occurs when two or more businesses in an area who are in a similar trade like cigars decide they will sell the same product for the same price. So if shop A decided they would sell Oliva G for 5.60 a piece this week so would shop B. then over the weekend the owners of shops A and B would meet and decide the would raise the price of oliva G to an even 6.00 on monday. it would work the same way with price drops too. That would be price fixing. Thats all thank you.

It would have been quicker to just type:

Cigar shops are not gas stations, that's price fixing ;)

Chas

[SeanGAR]

(FYI - in a communist system, the state would own both the cigar manufacturer *and* the retail outlet, and the employees would receive whatever money the government felt like doling out to them)

Prices are fixed in communist and socialist systems. They are not in a free market. Your comment about who owns the store and what employees are paid is irrelevant.

I'm still waiting for a copy of Mike's contract with Olivia.

[Legend]

Prices are fixed in communist and socialist systems. They are not in a free market. Your comment about who owns the store and what employees are paid is irrelevant.

I'm still waiting for a copy of Mike's contract with Olivia.

Setting a minimum price for a retailer to sell your goods is not price fixing. Price fixing is when the retailers get together and artificially raise prices on agreement. Msrp is standard in a free market. As is decreasing supply to increase demand. So is flooding the market to devalue something. All of it is free market tactics. You may not agree with them but it doesn't make them communist. You made an emotional comment that was incorrect. No harm or shame in it.

[rrplasencia]

[QUOTE=jaymz;259321]dishonest business practice and should be discouraged. If a company is willing to defraud a company as large as Oliva, how honest do you believe they will be in their dealings with you as a customer. I as a customer will be thinking twice about purchasing anything from Mike's Cigars in the future.
[QUOTE]

I've dealt with mikes on a wholesale level. Sometimes what goes around comes around. I've had direct dealing with Miami Cigar and Fuente Newman. Both ask you to sell their cigars at their suggested msrp, which is extremely fair price(Padron does the same). You don't have to do it, but then you don't have to become one of their retailers. That is a free market. There are plenty of other cigars i could have carried (especially in Miami) but i wanted those, ergo i agreed to the terms.

[SeanGAR]

Setting a minimum price for a retailer to sell your goods is not price fixing. Price fixing is when the retailers get together and artificially raise prices on agreement. Msrp is standard in a free market. As is decreasing supply to increase demand. So is flooding the market to devalue something. All of it is free market tactics. You may not agree with them but it doesn't make them communist. You made an emotional comment that was incorrect. No harm or shame in it.

If you set or fix a price of something, you are fixing the price. If that disagrees with specific accepted jargon ... well, gee. I can understand why Olivia is interested in maintaining cigar prices in the market, but Mike's prices on most things are 10% below MSRP. Big whoop. I get more than that here at my local. But I'm not a competitor and am not going to squeal to Olivia. I haven't purchased anything from Mike's in years, I really don't care.

[nozero]

I don't mean to get off topic but a big part of what I do is market research, campaigns and the New Coke idea is generally recognized as one of the greatest marketing coups of all time. Easily one of the Top 10.

According to Snopes and the folks at Coke and other sources http://www.google.com/search?q=New+Coke+%3F&rls=com.microsoft:*&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1, this was not a marketing ploy.
http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/newcoke.asp

one more
Windows Vista: The 'New Coke' of the PC age | csmonitor.com (http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0424/p17s01-stct.html)

[MiamiE]

I know there are a lot of B&M owners on here, but as a consumer I am out to get the best deals and for the most part B&M's do not provide better deals than the internet retailers. Times are tough for everyone.

[Legend]

If you set or fix a price of something, you are fixing the price. If that disagrees with specific accepted jargon ... well, gee. I can understand why Olivia is interested in maintaining cigar prices in the market, but Mike's prices on most things are 10% below MSRP. Big whoop. I get more than that here at my local. But I'm not a competitor and am not going to squeal to Olivia. I haven't purchased anything from Mike's in years, I really don't care.

Your jargon with regards to price fixing was not the issue. You were claiming communist practices. I and a few others here simply disagreed and and clarified that it was in fact free market that was happening. This is how free market works. You don't like it fine. You don't have to. We simply wanted to clarify that it was not communism.

[Legend]

According to Snopes and the folks at Coke and other sources http://www.google.com/search?q=New+Coke+%3F&rls=com.microsoft:*&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1, this was not a marketing ploy.
]

May not have been but the execs at coke spun it to work for them. Which it did.

This was my point. These guys aren't morons. And assuming anyone, let alone guys in charge of a multi-million dollar company, is stupid just because you don't see their reasoning is foolish. And arrogant. I try to remind myself of that whenever I think something is stupid. Well there must be a reason. What is it? What am I not seeing? Etc. I don't know everything yet. :-D

[SeanGAR]

May not have been but the execs at coke spun it to work for them. Which it did.

This was my point. These guys aren't morons. And assuming anyone, let alone guys in charge of a multi-million dollar company, is stupid just because you don't see their reasoning is foolish. And arrogant. I try to remind myself of that whenever I think something is stupid. Well there must be a reason. What is it? What am I not seeing? Etc. I don't know everything yet. :-D

I am reminded of a friend who screwed up and missed his flight, thinking he read 220 when it was 1220.

The plane he missed crashed killing all on board.

He still screwed up by missing the flight, but it turned out well for him.

Same thing with coke.

[doctorcue]

So we should all agree to disagree. Aren't we here to smoke? :tu

[Legend]

I am reminded of a friend who screwed up and missed his flight, thinking he read 220 when it was 1220.

The plane he missed crashed killing all on board.

He still screwed up by missing the flight, but it turned out well for him.

Same thing with coke.

Yeah they are still morons. Just lucky morons.

Figures.

[SeanGAR]

Yeah they are still morons. Just lucky morons.

Figures.

Exactly.

I'm glad that you now agree with the Coke VP I spoke with regarding this escapade.